hrvtrans HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATION HEARINGS 1996-04-24 HEIDERVELD 3 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=55175&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/hrvtrans/heide/ct00506.htm CASE NO: CT/00506 VICTIM: NOMBULELO DELATO VIOLATION: HUMAN BURNING TESTIMONIES FROM: BUSISWE KEWANA [daughter] THOMZAMA MALITI DR BORAINE Ms Kewana thank you very much for coming, I see you are - your really know what to do, so let’s - let’s do it and start straight away before I forget to ask you to take the oath. BUSISWE KEWANA Duly sworn states DR BORAINE Ms Kewana you are - come to tell a very grim - grim story and we’ve heard some grim stories but this is perhaps one of the worst that we have heard. The death of Nombulelo Delato, we want to thank you for coming, we wait to hear your story and my colleague on the Commission, advocate Denzil Potgieter is going to lead you and to assist you in telling your own story. We welcome you. MS KEWANA Thank you. ADV POTGIETER Thank you Alex, good afternoon Busiswe. MS KEWANA Good afternoon Mr Denzil. ADV POTGIETER Thank you for coming and thank you for being patient. Your - your evidence - your evidence - can you hear me? MS KEWANA No. ADV POTGIETER Okay, can you hear me now? MS KEWANA No. ADV POTGIETER Or perhaps the translation. MS KEWANA Ja I hear you now. ADV POTGIETER All right, you’ll hear if they translate. MS KEWANA Yes. ADV POTGIETER We’ll try again, as the vice chairperson has indicated it - the matter concerns your late mother which is Nombulelo Delato who died in 1985 in - well the incident happened in Colesberg is that correct? MS KEWANA Yes. ADV POTGIETER Perhaps you could just give us some of your own - your personal background, what do you do at the moment. MS KEWANA Okay, my name is Busiswe Kewana, I was born at Hanover here in the Cape. I left it in 1984 and I went to study at Queenstown. That’s where I studied and from there I came to Cape Town to study here. ADV POTGIETER Thank you very much, when this incident happened that is here concerned you were actually in Queenstown you were studying, you were at school is that correct? MS KEWANA Yes that’s correct. ADV POTGIETER Now what actually happened? MS KEWANA What happened while I was still in Queenstown, I received a telegram it was from my grandmother in Cape Town. It was telling me that my mother had passed away. He has been burnt. ADV POTGIETER It’s okay, we know it’s very difficult. MS KEWANA After that, my grandmother and others tried by all means to find out what happened. They went to Bloemfontein, to find out from that hospital where she was, to find out what happened. Now there, they were told that she has died. And she was burned while she was pregnant. Now after that, we tried to make arrangements for the funeral. Now we were prevented from burying her at Colesberg, I don’t know why - we were never told. My mother and my maternal aunt - my mother - they were buried by the Government in Bloemfontein, that’s all I heard. ADV POTGIETER Now was there any indication given as to why this happened? MS KEWANA I tried to find out what happened, two weeks prior that I’ve - I met another sister from Colesberg. After a long time when I have been trying out what happened to my mother, she when she saw me, she recognised me. She asked me aren’t you so and so’s daughter. I said yes I am. I got curious and then I asked her, how do you know my mother, she explained to me how she know - she knew her. So I told - I asked her what happened to my mother for her to be burned like that in Colesberg, so she told me what happened. I wasn’t satisfied, the reason why I am here, I want the Commission to help me - to help me try and find out why they killed my mother. Because to me this is a wound that will never heal. That’s where I will end. ADV POTGIETER Can I just ask you, you said that you were prevented from burying your mother in Colesberg, why - why was that and who - who prevented you? MS KEWANA Like I said that we were not personally there we heard rumours that my mother could not be buried there, we don’t know the reason, we were never told, until today. Do you know whether your mother has been involved in politics in any way? ADV POTGIETER As far as I am concerned, my mother was - my mother was politically active he use to attend meetings no but now still, I don’t understand why that happened to her. The woman who told me this, she says they were looking for somebody related to my mother. Now but because they couldn’t find the person they were looking for then they took my mother and burnt her. The people who were involved were they arrested, were they taken to Court? MS KEWANA Yes according to what I heard they were arrested. But I don’t know what that - the case - how the case ended. ADV POTGIETER Okay is there - is there anything further that you want to add to what you’ve said already? MS KEWANA No. ADV POTGIETER Perhaps I should just mention that with you on the witness stand is your grandmother. MS KEWANA Yes. ADV POTGIETER That’s - is that Margaret. MS KEWANA Kewana. ADV POTGIETER Kewana and with you as well is a witness, somebody who at least knows what - what actually happened who was in Colesberg that’s Thomzama Maliti is that correct? MS KEWANA Yes. ADV POTGIETER Thank you, and you would like her to present her evidence as well. MS KEWANA Yes sir. ADV POTGIETER Thank you, I’ll just hear if my colleagues have any questions for you first of all. CHAIRPERSON Any questions, Dr Boraine. DR BORAINE Mr Chairperson I - I do have some questions, but I am wondering if it wouldn’t be wiser to wait for the eyewitness or a witness because he may answer the questions, and it will save some time if I - if I don’t ask them now. But I’ll reserve that for later, but could I swear the witness in. MR POTGIETER Please. DR BORAINE Ms Maliti can you hear me all right? MS MALITI Yes. DR BORAINE You all right. MS MALITI Yes. DR BORAINE I have to ask you to take the oath like everybody else, so would you please stand. I am going to ask you and then you can make your response. THOMZAMMA MALITI Duly sworn states DR BORAINE Thank you very much please be seated, Mr Potgieter. ADV POTGIETER Thank you Dr Boraine, perhaps I must just hear whether the translation is coming through to you, you can perhaps just indicate, are they translating for you, is it coming through there. MR MALITI Yes. ADV POTGIETER Is it fine? MR MALITI Yes. ADV POTGIETER Okay, thank you very much. Thank you for coming, and of being of assistance to the Commission. Is it correct that you were - you presently living in Khayelitsha. MR MALATI Ja. ADV POTGIETER But in 1985 you were living in Colesberg. MR MALITI Yes that is true. ADV POTGIETER Thank you, and that you know the deceased that we talking about her. MR MALITI Yes I know him. ADV POTGIETER And you know about the incident that this case is about. MR MALITI Yes I know. ADV POTGIETER Can you still remember when it happened. MR MALITI Yes. ADV POTGIETER Can you give that date to us. MR MALITI It was the end of October - 10th of October 1985. ADV POTGIETER Can you tell us what you saw what happened. MR MALITI He was on his way to work, to young men - young men approached at him. Now they were five, when they saw him, they chased him. He went to hide in another house, and now they took him out of that house. They took him - they took his overall; and they poured him with petrol bomb. One of them held his feet and then they started igniting her - his - her feet. They were beating him up - her up. INTERPRETER I am sorry I can’t hear the microphone is off. They beat her up and they put a tire on him - on her. There was nobody who could stop this, the police were looking for - for her but they were lost and they couldn’t find her. She tried to go to them, when she got there, the people who tried to hurt her and [indistinct] they couldn’t because she didn’t have a voice, the police took her to Bloemfontein. In Bloemfontein she stayed for three days, she started to mention everybody who did this to her. Then after that, she died. They didn’t allow her to be buried in Colesberg, because they said she was an informer. After - they said if she was buried there, they were going to burn the church. Then she ended up being buried in Pilonome Hospital, that’s where I will stop for a moment. ADV POTGIETER I assume that this incident had taken place in the township in Colesberg. MR MALITI Sorry? ADV POTGIETER I assume that the incident happened in the township in Colesberg. MR MALITI In the location. ADV POTGIETER In the location? MR MALITI Yes it was [indistinct] ADV POTGIETER Now was the deceased involved in any politics, supporting any movement? MR MALITI Yes he was in every meeting that was held, she never missed any. ADV POTGIETER In those days there was the UDF, the United Democratic Front. MR MALITI Yes it was the UDF. ADV POTGIETER She supported that movement? MR MALITI Sorry. ADV POTGIETER She was supporting that movement. MR MALITI Yes she use to attend UDF meetings every day. ADV POTGIETER You - I assume you knew the deceased well. MR MALITI No I can’t hear well no. ADV POTGIETER I will just repeat that - I’ll repeat the question just see if it’s coming through to you. I accept that you knew Ms Delato well. MR MALITI Yes I knew her well. ADV POTGIETER Ja, was there - was there any truth in this allegation that she was an impiempi an informer? MR MALITI She is my cousin, my uncle who was a policeman was looking for her, they said if they can’t get part of her family, they are going to get her then. That’s they got her, now but the reason why they burn her is because my uncle is a policeman. ADV POTGIETER And the people responsible, who are they - I mean - what - where do they belong in the - in the situation in the location at that stage, were they comrades - what were they - were they [intervention] MR MALITI When they - what they called themselves was that they were comrades. ADV POTGIETER You say that their names were given to the police, do you know what happened further? MR MALITI Yes they were arrested in 1985 and they were sent to Middelburg Cape. Then after that they were arrested. I am sure they got out of the prison after Mandela was released from prison, then they were also released. One of them was going to be hanged, I don’t know what saved him, his name is Tifo Sihlaba. ADV POTGIETER Thank you very much, I’ve got no further questions. CHAIRPERSON Thank you - are there any further questions, Dumisa Ntsebeza. ADV NTSEBEZA Is your name Thomzama? MR MALITI Yes my name is Thomzama. ADV NTSEBEZA There are just a few things that I would like us to explain, you said while this happened there was a boycott of the shops that time. One of the names stood up we were told now that we should boycott all the shops, a consumer boycott. Your mother’s main offence was that she went to buy meat from the butchery, is there anything else? --- No there is nothing else is just end of Tape 15, side B … ADV NTSEBEZA You will correct me if I am wrong, she tried to clear her name. MR MALITI Yes sir. ADV NTSEBEZA According to the report that you gave us earlier, the people who were taking the statements earlier of the Commission. She paid in R100-00. MR MALITI Yes. ADV NTSEBEZA Where did she send this R100-00? MR MALITI She send it to the comrades and the comrades announced it that she did pay this R100-00 trying to ask for forgiveness for buying meat during a consumer boycott, they said they forgive her. At that time she was staying in town, not in the township. Now she took this letter to the township. ADV NTSEBEZA In other words she wrote a letter, saying that is asking for forgiveness for what she has done, and she would like to come back to live in the township, but - and she was told that - yes she has been forgiven by the comrades and again this was announced in the meeting. It was announced that yes she was forgiven? MR MALITI Yes this was so. ADV NTSEBEZA When she came back to the township she was under the impression that she was forgiven. MR MALITI Yes. ADV NTSEBEZA In other words her killing - she was killed while she was still under the impression that she was safe, knowing that she was forgiven. MR MALITI Yes that’s so. ADV NTSEBEZA When did the police come in? MR MALITI The police arrived when she was burnt already. ADV NTSEBEZA What do you mean now by that? MR MALITI When the police came in, they could - they were trying to find out where she was, but they could hear her crying. They saw her in the Main Road, she was already alight. ADV NTSEBEZA Did she run after she was burnt? MR MALITI No she couldn’t run, she was just walking slowly, her clothes were burning. She went to the direction where the police were. ADV NTSEBEZA Was she walking around while she was naked? MR MALITI Yes. ADV NTSEBEZA Were the people afraid to help her? MR MALITI No-one was allowed by the comrades to help her, so she went alone to the van. ADV NTSEBEZA Where these comrades who were chasing people away, where were these people at this time? MR MALITI There were five of them, at the beginning there were too many but at the end they were just five, one of them was Tifo Sihlaba, it was Tabo Gusha, Pinkdyaan Kelem, Toto Mayaba, Tembile Falati. ADV NTSEBEZA What about Zolile Silwayane? MR MALITI Zolile Silwayane is the one who actually accepted the money, he is the leader of this whole situation. ADV NTSEBEZA I just wanted to clarify that. So Zolile is the one who accepted the money? MR MALITI Yes he is the one who - he is the one who announced that she has - he had received the money and that he was the one who actually went back again and said she must be ignited. ADV NTSEBEZA Now this policeman Fezile Malitiba - Maliti is he your uncle? MR MALITI Yes she is my uncle and the deceased uncle. We are [indistinct] to him. ADV NTSEBEZA So you are related to Fezile? MR MALITI Yes, my mother is Fezile’s brother. ADV NTSEBEZA Who is Fezile now? MR MALITI Fezile is the policeman - Fezile Maliti is his name. He was wanted because he was a policeman, but because he was staying in town the comrades couldn’t get him. The actual person who they wanted was Fezile, now the comrades. ADV NTSEBEZA So the comrades decided to take - to take Fezile’s relative. MR MALITI First they came to me, then they went to my - to the deceased. ADV NTSEBEZA What was your offence? MR MALITI Our offence was because we were related to this policeman - Fezile our uncle. I ran to Cape Town. ADV NTSEBEZA We understand Thomzama that this is very painful, could you please and endure until I finished asking questions. These questions will enable us to finish this report. This - this is a very unique case from all the cases we have heard, we’ve been listening to cases where our people were being killed by police and the Government but now this is unique because our people now are being killed by our own people at the same time. But now we are forced now to try and get all the details about this, so that in the report that we make, the Chairman of this Commission can be able to bring out the foolishness of these murders just by suspicion - just a few questions then I will let you go. Do you know the husband to the deceased? MR MALITI Yes I know his name is Doti. That day - he doesn’t know anything because he ran. He ran to Crossroads, and even today he is not well since then. ADV NTSEBEZA Just to clear something up, are you trying to say he was never well again mentally? MR MALITI Yes that’s what I am saying. ADV NTSEBEZA Do you know what happened to him? MR MALITI He is now at Vredestad and he want’s to come back to his house. But he is still struggling to get it back, he is the Mayor. ADV NTSEBEZA Is there anyone among you who can still go back to Colesberg? MR MALITI No I don’t want anything to do with Colesberg. ADV NTSEBEZA I heard that one of your wishes was that you would like to have her bones back. MR MALITI Yes we would like them to come back to Colesberg. ADV NTSEBEZA Among these people who are now out of jail, are they here? MR MALITI Yes they are all out of jail. ADV NTSEBEZA Do they still feel that Busisiwe’s mother was an informer just because he went to buy meat? MR MALITI No I can’t hear - I can’t - I didn’t hear anything about that, I don’t know if that’s how they still feel. Nobody even bothered to ask for forgiveness. When we saw each other, they just looked down. ADV NTSEBEZA I am very sorry that we have to ask you these painful questions, but I am sure that you also understand that we have a duty here to perform, thank you very much. CHAIRPERSON Thank you, anyone with a question, Mary Burton. MS BURTON Just one question, [indistinct] whether Fezile Maliti has - is still in Colesberg? MS KEWANA [No audible answer] MS BURTON Can I ask the question again, I just wanted to ask whether your uncle Fezile Maliti is in Colesberg, whether he returned to Colesberg or where he is now. MS KEWANA He was still - he was in Colesberg, he just came last year and he says he is not going anywhere. MS BURTON Thank you and may I ask another question. You - as I understand your statement there were a number of possible reasons why there was this attack on your mother, because she had bought things from the shop although she had tried to make up for that, all because these were suspicions that she was a an informer and also because she was related to a policeman. MS KEWANA Yes that is so. MS BURTON And at the same time you - there seems to be a suggestion that there were somebody pushing them to do this, that it wasn’t just any of those reasons only, but that there was also some pressure on those people to take this action. MS KEWANA Yes that’s so. MS BURTON And you [indistinct] in your statement that those people were on the one hand working for the organisation but on the other hand also working for the police. MS KEWANA Yes that’s correct. MS BURTON That’s also something you would want us to try and find out more about. MS KEWANA [No audible answer] MS BURTON Shall I say it again, so you would like us also to try and find out more about that so we can understand better. MS KEWANA Yes I would be very happy if you can do that. I would be happy if she would be buried again in Colesberg and then she would again get her own house. MS BURTON Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Thank you very much - it’s obvious to us that the things that we have to investigate - it’s just ugly things and it’s not just from one side only it’s from both sides, this is why this Commission is an independent Commission. It is not only pulled by one side - it is meant to investigate all these atrocities that had happened in this country. We are promising you that we will investigate up to the roots of this whole matter. Then we will be able to tell you why this happened maybe then we can be able to help you and try and bring your mother’s bones back to Colesberg, thank you. MS KEWANA Thank you. CHAIRPERSON You may now leave. MS KEWANA No I haven’t finished. As she has said before, my - the question that I expected from you is that we are going to ask me what do I expect from the TRC. My wish from the Commission is that my mother would be buried where she was born, and I would like us to get the house back, our own house back. I couldn’t finish my studies because nobody could give me money, now I had to work so that I can educate myself. If I could just get something to help my family I will be happy with that. CHAIRPERSON Thank you, we don’t really promise that we are going to do all these things, but we will try, thank you.