hrvtrans HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATION HEARINGS 1996-04-25 HEIDERVELD 4 CT/00508 LUCAS BABA SIKWEPERE LUCAS BABA SIKWEPERE, NONTOBEKO GALLERY FENI TORTURE https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=55176&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/hrvtrans/heide/ct00508.htm DR BORAINE MR SIKWEPERE Yes. DR BORAINE Can you hear the [indistinct] as well. MR SIKWEPERE Yes I can. DR BORAINE LUCAS BABA SIKWEPERE Duly sworn states DR BORAINE And Ms Pumla Gobodo one of our Commissioners will take up from me now to assist you to tell your own story, thank you. MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA Thank you Chairman - Chairperson. Chairperson Dr Boraine has introduced to you and presented Lucas Baba Sikwepere. Baba is going to present to us what he says is the work of the man who came to be known as the Rambo of the Peninsula. The police officer who is known by the name of Barnard. Baba is going to tell us that the last time he saw with his eyes, was when he turned to look at Barnard who then blew his eyes and vision to non existence. And speaking of a Court of Law, I am reminded of what a witness here on Tuesday said, Mr Juqu, Mr Juqu said in those years the Law allowed them to do whatever they wanted to do to us. And he further said that if you were a person in authority and I will translate what he said literally. He first of all dismissed the expert testimony of Dr Allan Patten and said that he was in no way convinced that President Mandela and Others were trying to improve the lives of the oppressed in apartheid South Africa. JP de Wet also said that just as a way of explaining to everybody what the Courts then were doing, he said that the function of the Courts is to enforce the Laws of the States. And to enforce law and order. Baba, you can take off your earphones. Good morning, I am just going to explain to you how this house is arranged. If you face towards your right, that is now the whole house, you are now seated on the platform, people in this house are approximately 200 to 250. You are now seated on the platform. And our small tables are arranged as a horse shoe. Right in the middle of the horse shoe is Bishop Tutu, next to him is Dr Boraine, I am right at the extreme end of this horse shoe. I am seated directly across you, we are facing each other. We are now going to start to talk to each other, Baba. Could you please tell us Baba what happened on that day of this incident, could you please explain to us. MR SIKWEPERE And I heard that we are now being attacked. I ran, we were - I went through the Terminus Road. Now that was where we were suppose to collect each other. Now that place was between Crossroads and KTC. While we were still there, a van approached - it was a white van and it was driven by Barnard. When he - after he had just passed, he asked us to all disperse within five minutes. People asked how can - how can he ask us to - to disperse because we are not here to do any harm. Only people who are suppose too - who are here to burn the place should be dispersed. MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA MR SIKWEPERE I was just standing for two minutes next to the window, I found out now - now this white man opened the door and withdraw his gun. Now I wanted to find out what is the story going on, on the other side of this car. I tried to peep and I was looking straight into him, straight to him. When - while I was still looking at him, these people asked him, how can you ask us to disperse, and yet we have no aims to do harm to anyone. We are here to stop whoever who is trying to burn this place up. This white man said this in Afrikaans - you are going to get eventually what you looking for. And I am going to shoot you. I was shocked at what this white man said to him, to me. He said in Afrikaans, I am going to get you. Now I wanted to find out why is he talking to me like this. And I was just trying to find out was he referring to me by all these, and one - one of the men behind me ran. I saw this people surrounding this van - I was now wondering when - where do these people come from surrounding this van, all of a sudden. I was worried, tried to think where were they taking me, they emphasized all - they were concentrating on me, most of the time, they took me to the cemetery. I was with Lulama Magoje and she was the one who was holding my hand. And they pushed me into a hole and they were - I was told to tell the truth even if you could die here now, nobody would know anything. MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA Truth about what Baba? MR SIKWEPERE MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA Who are these people Baba? MR SIKWEPERE These people are white policemen, I cannot tell their names now, and I cannot tell who they were because I was already blind this time. MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA Were they speaking English or Xhosa? MR SIKWEPERE They were speaking English but there was only one Xhosa speaking person, it was the interpreter. After that they took me to Guguletu police station. We stayed there with other detained people. One of them was Baba - not Baba only to find that they were not looking for Baba they were looking for Baba. I knew that this is something, this was their usual practice. Because I was very scared I told them a certain statement which I cannot even tell now to you because I was too scared. I was just telling then that people were burning certain places and they were murdering certain people, I cannot tell you why I said that, because I - I was so confused. KTC place was the place where people use to be killed. MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA Thank you Baba. We can see that this is still painful for you, when you have to talk about these things, we can see that it is painful for you. Baba because at the end of all - all these proceedings, I would like to ask you a few questions to have clarity. Firstly you said something that had happened at KTC where Barnard was, is that. MR SIKWEPERE Yes. MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA MR SIKWEPERE Yes. MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA What did they do to you when you were at the cemetery, what did [intervention] MR SIKWEPERE MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA This truth were they - is that the truth that they were asking you that you knew everything about the arms? MR SIKWEPERE MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA Thank you Baba I am going to let you go now, but I am going to hand you over to our Chairperson, maybe some of my Colleagues have questions as well. Do you think you can answer some of their questions? MR SIKWEPERE Yes I will. MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Anyone with a question, Dumisa Ntsebeza. ADV NTSEBEZA MR SIKWEPERE [No audible answer] ADV NTSEBEZA Did they interrogate you until 1987, is that so? MR SIKWEPERE ADV NTSEBEZA And you were already blind at that time? MR SIKWEPERE ADV NTSEBEZA And what they emphasized on was because you were blind, you were the one keeping the arms, you were the one hiding the arms. No because the police will not suspect you, now they were going to make you show them the arms, is that so? MR SIKWEPERE Yes that is so. ADV NTSEBEZA Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Wendy Orr. DR ORR MR SIKWEPERE DR ORR Do you mean by this members of the Inkatha Freedom Party of was it another group of people? MR SIKWEPERE DR ORR Thank you, and just one other question, before you were shot, who did you see standing there pointing a gun at you? MR SIKWEPERE The person I was looking at, pointing a gun at me, I saw this gun pointing at me and I heard the shot against my cheek and it was Barnard, he was standing next to his car. DR ORR Thank you very much. CHAIRPERSON Dr Boraine. DR BORAINE I want to ask you two questions. The first is when you recovered but - from your injuries but you were blind, was there any Court case or anything that happened after that? MR SIKWEPERE DR BORAINE Was there - let me try and rephrase that. You were shot and you were blind was their any investigation about - against the man who shot you at all? MR SIKWEPERE DR BORAINE And what happened after that? MR SIKWEPERE DR BORAINE The last question that I have is, that was in 1985 is that right when you were shot? MR SIKWEPERE [No audible answer] DR BORAINE Was that in 1985 when you were shot? MR SIKWEPERE Yes it was the last day of the year. DR BORAINE And in 1987 you were tortured again. MR SIKWEPERE Yes very much. DR BORAINE Is that at the Guguletu police station? MR SIKWEPERE Yes it was at Guguletu police station. DR BORAINE What did they do to you? MR SIKWEPERE DR BORAINE [indistinct] you before you made the statement. MR SIKWEPERE DR BORAINE MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA Thank you, take off your earphones, Baba I would like to tell the people of the Commission because of the question that was asked by one of our ladies about the Inkatha. I want to tell them that in the townships where there are Xhosa speaking people, during these riots and all the violence, if there were other people who were not Xhosa speaking there, and they were speaking Zulu, those people living in that area, would conclude that those are Inkatha people. MR SIKWEPERE Yes there are several of them. Some are here in my neck. Now on my face you can really see them, but my face feels quite rough, it feels like rough salt. I usually have terrible headaches. MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA Thank you Baba. CHAIRPERSON We will come again after lunch. MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA Thank you Chairperson. DR BORAINE I have to swear her in. MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA Again? DR BORAINE MS FENI Yes. DR BORAINE Can you hear the translation? MS FENI Yes I can hear it well. DR BORAINE NONTOBEKO GALLERY FENI Duly sworn states DR BORAINE Thank you very much, you may be seated, Pumla thank you. MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA MS FENI MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA Is he a policeman? MS FENI Yes he is a policeman. MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA Was Swart driving? MS FENI No Barnard was driving, Swart was next to Barnard, he usually - he is usually with Barnard all the time. When he called us there were men waiting in the yard among our shacks. And that was the place where the boers use to patrol. MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA MS FENI MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA Who are these people were they wit doeke? MS FENI MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA Which are those men, are they the wit doek? MS FENI Yes they were, wit doek. When they arrived Barnard started to shoot at them he said come are you afraid you comrades, come. Now he started shooting, shooting all over when I looked next to me one of the men fell next to me. And it was Baba, I said Baba get up, oh! they have finished me off. That time I had a child on my back, he was a year or so. And then a taxi arrived and took us to Conrad, and that is the end of the story. MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA MS FENI MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA He said you are cowards, are you afraid of this [indistinct] - illiterate people come. MS FENI MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA Thank you mamma. I am going to ask our Chairman to have just a last question to Baba, thank you. MR SIKWEPERE MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA Could you please tell us this Bishop Tutu sack you talking about. MR SIKWEPERE MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA Now how much time lapsed before you went back to Guguletu? Before and again they tortured you. MR SIKWEPERE MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA So the picture you giving us now here is that they kept coming at - to you - to throw you in a deserted place to throw you into cemeteries, so that you can be tortured in those places? MR SIKWEPERE Yes, usually I have a fat body, but after that I lost all my body, now I am thin as you can see me now. MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA Now for the last time, how do you feel about coming here to tell us your story? MR SIKWEPERE CHAIRPERSON Is there - any Dr Orr. DR ORR MS FENI Yes I was injured, even my child was injured as well, there she is. CHAIRPERSON Mary Burton. MS BURTON Thank you, I would like to ask a question which either Mr Sikwepere or Ms Feni may be able to answer. There was mentioned at the time when you were near the van before Mr Sikwepere was shot, that there were other people there, one of them I think was Mbulelo who was also known as Bullet, I think his name was Mbulelo Sikoto is that right? MR SIKWEPERE MS BURTON Can you remember the names of any other people who were there at the time? MR SIKWEPERE MS BURTON We thank you. CHAIRPERSON Any other, thank you very much to both of you for coming to us and telling your story, thank you very much. Is there anything that you wanted to add. MR SIKWEPERE CHAIRPERSON Thank you, there is another question from the research section. UNKNOWN COMMISSIONER Baba what is your wish that the Commission can do for you to help? What is your wish Baba? MR SIKWEPERE UNKNOWN COMMISSIONER Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Thank you very much.