hrvtrans HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATIONS, SUBMISSIONS QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS 1997-06-10 EAST LONDON 2 MR ZWELAKHE BIKITSHA EC195/96 ELN https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=55229&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/hrvtrans/hrvel2/elnbikit.htm REV FINCA We will now call Zwelakhe Bikitsha. While he is coming up to the stage I would like to ask all the witnesses for to-day to go to that table to ask for Mr Pilanxhumba so those that those can appear to-morrow can tell us and those who cannot we will try to squeeze them in to-day because it is clear that we do not have enough time to finish our order. Those who are able to appear to-morrow please go to that table and indicate whether you will be able to appear to-morrow or not. Mr Bikitsah Zwelakhe we welcome you, we will ask Reverend Xundu to help you take the oath so that you can give us your testimony. MR ZWELAKHE BIKITSHA (sworn states) REV FINCA Tiny Maya? MISS MAYA Thank you Mr Chairperson. Mr Bikitsha I greet you, your story is concerning what happened to you is that correct? MR BIKITSHA Yes, that is correct. MISS MAYA We have a date here is the 16th of July 1987? MR BIKITSHA Yes, that is correct. MISS MAYA Where your home was attacked and one person died inside the house and certain police were injured. Are you going to talk about that story? MR BIKITSHA Yes. MISS MAYA Please tell us briefly what happened on that day. MR BIKITSHA MISS MAYA Who is Mhleli? MR BIKITSHA MISS MAYA Was Mhleli a policeman? MR BIKITSHA He was a Security Branch officer. MISS MAYA Could we revert back please, please tell us what exactly happened on this day you said that you saw your fence was down. MR BIKITSHA The security officers and soldiers were at my house looking for an MK member. MISS MAYA Was there an MK member in your house? MR BIKITSHA Yes, Rousseau was there. MISS MAYA Is his is Matemba? MR BIKITSHA Yes. MISS MAYA What did you eventually find out happened at your place? MR BIKITSHA Matemba passed away. I was taken back to my house. Van Wyk was there with Captain Mfundisi. Captain van Wyk had my marriage certificate and pictures and asked if that was my documentation and I said yes. He showed me two policemen that had passed away. He then took me to a corner where Matemba was lying, dead. I did not see anyone though. MISS MAYA Did you eventually find out how he died? MR BIKITSHA MISS MAYA Have you given us this name? MR BIKITSHA I do not remember it. MISS MAYA After you were shot at home, what happened to you? MR BIKITSHA Van Wyk said that Mfundisi must take me to the police station and they must make sure that I divulge. MISS MAYA And when you got to this police station? MR BIKITSHA MISS MAYA Mr Bikitsha the people who were assaulting you, did you know any of them or can you identify any of them? MR BIKITSHA I saw many of them. MISS MAYA Did you give us details about them? MR BIKITSHA I have a list of their names. MISS MAYA Can you please give us the names of those you remember? MR BIKITSHA Mxhata, Delait Mazewa, Swelindaho, Mfundisi and Bouti. MISS MAYA Thank you Mr Bikitsha, are there any people on that list that are still alive? MR BIKITSHA Bouti and Mtatha are in higher ranks now. MISS MAYA Thank you, for how long were you detained? MR BIKITSHA For ninety six days. MISS MAYA How were you treated during that time? MR BIKITSHA ................ the treatment I got after the interrogations we wrote autobiographies and they left us alone. We appeared before the Magistrate Mxhaeba MISS MAYA Is there anything else you would like to add before I as you for your requests or your expectations? MR BIKITSHA Yes, there is something I would like to add. The Government robbed us because we won our claim an out of court settlement. Firstly, we were robbed because we were sent to the Magistrate and instead of coming and checking our situation he talked to us as if he was talking to children. Secondly, the doctor was said to be missing and our folders were missing but the doctor was there. They made this up so that we would not be able to claim. My house was damaged as well. MISS MAYA Please give us the name of the Magistrate. MR BIKITSHA He is Mxhaeba. MISS MAYA And the doctor? MR BIKITSHA Agweno. MISS MAYA Thank you. What are your requests or what do you expect the Commission to do for you? MR BIKITSHA First of all I would like these people to come forward with their side of the story so that we can hear their side of the story. Secondly, as the situation was like it was there were no doctors that were helping us we were not treated properly and we were tortured . The single cells in which we were kept had no windows. We were then transferred to solitary confinement in prison and we needed medical treatment because we suffered from stress and from torture. Thirdly, my house and my properties ... I got three thousand rand and I could not even buy enough clothes to wear with that kind of money. MISS MAYA Thank you Mr Bikitsha I will now hand over to the Chairperson and maybe you will be asked questions. Thank you. REV FINCA Mr Sandi? MR SANDI MR BIKITSHA He was a Commander. MR SANDI Did he take part in this process? MR BIKITSHA Yes, he did because I was tortured by Mnandana their sub-ordinate. They pretended to be better and I went to Nonhonho. They also had documents of people who were in exile. They interrogated us about these people. MR SANDI What did Mr Nonhonho do to you? MR BIKITSHA He was instructing these people to do the things they were doing to me. They were in his command. MR SANDI MR BIKITSHA Yes, and others. MR SANDI Thank you. REV FINCA Mr Bikitsha I have only one question for you, you are talking about doctors. You were tortured and then you were taken to the doctors for treatment. MR BIKITSHA Please repeat Sir. REV FINCA Do you have a medical report to substantiate the allegation of torture? MR BIKITSHA REV FINCA The second question, I want to know what kind of torture was used on you. MR BIKITSHA REV FINCA What did you refer the one you just mentioned to? MR BIKITSHA It was boeing. REV FINCA Who were torturing you, do you know their names? MR BIKITSHA There were many of them but Bouti and Mtatha were also there. REV FINCA MR BIKITSHA REV FINCA Lastly Mr Bikitsha, you mentioned Boyce ..........., Nokalema Thomas as the witnesses. Are these your witnesses, were they detained with you or what are they witnessing? MR BIKITSHA Boyce .................. is not a witness we were charged together. Nokalema was the one who hired a lawyer Magqabi for me. He applied for a grant to pay for my house from the Border Council of Churches. REV FINCA MR BIKITSHA I was alone. REV FINCA Were you in solitary confinement? MR BIKITSHA In the torture room you would be alone. REV FINCA I think this is my last question, you said that at home there was a person who was a member of Umkhonto weSizwe, were you a member of Umkhonto weSizwe? MR BIKITSHA I received training inside. I received my training inside the country. REV FINCA My question was were you a member of Umkhonto weSizwe? MR BIKITSHA No, I was not a member of Umkhonto weSizwe. REV FINCA REV FINCA MR MBANDAZAYO REV FINCA REV XUNDU Thank you Mr Chairperson. MR MHLELI MFUNANI (sworn states) REV FINCA Mr Mbandazayo please proceed with your client. MR MBANDAZAYO Mr Chairman as usual you have before you main points which my client will give evidence on and I will start asking him to give evidence on those points. Mr Mfunani you have heard the complainant Mr Bikitsha giving evidence regarding the circumstances of the day in question, can you before the Commission and in your own words tell the Commission what happened on the day in question. MR MFUNANI I can do that Sir. Thank you Mr Chairperson. First of all it is true that the witness who was here, we used to live together a lot of times. Secondly Mr Chairperson on this particular day I was working in Bisho and I had just been promoted after writing police examinations. I was at the Head Office in Bisho at the time. REV FINCA Thank you Mr Mfunani, if you have no objections we are going to ask you a few questions. Mr Mfunani I think that your statement is very clear but I just want to know when you got to Mdantsane Security Branch offices to whom did you hand Mr Bikitsha over to? MR MFUNANI To the Captain who was Mr Mhlangabise at the time. REV FINCA Is Mhlangabise the first name or surname? MR MFUNANI It Mhlangabise Mfundisi, the surname is Mfundisi. REV FINCA You then met him again in court? MR MFUNANI Yes, that is correct Sir. REV FINCA Who handed him over to you when you met in court? MR MFUNANI REV FINCA Mr Sandi? MR SANDI Thank you Mr Chairperson. Mr Mfunani, we have a problem with time so I would like you to be very brief in your answers if you can, you can just say yes or no. Thank you Mr Chairperson. Let me start by asking this, what is your rank in the police force now? MR MFUNANI I left the police force as a Major in 1993. MR SANDI When did you joint the police force? MR MFUNANI In 1979. MR SANDI MR MFUNANI Yes, that is correct. MR SANDI At the time of the bus boycott were you a policeman? MR MFUNANI Yes. MR SANDI Here in Mdantsane? MR MFUNANI Yes. MR SANDI Lets proceed without wasting any time. Do you know Mr Bikitsha? MR MFUNANI Yes, I do. MR SANDI How do you know him? MR MFUNANI We were staying in the same house. MR SANDI Why then is he accusing you of this? MR MFUNANI MR SANDI Did you speak to each other after the incident of this arrest, did you meet with each other? MR MFUNANI I met him in court Mr Chairperson. MR SANDI Did you not meet after that? MR MFUNANI No. MR SANDI Is it the first time that you see him to-day after appearing in court? MR MFUNANI I used to see him in the street when I was driving my car. MR SANDI You never spoke to each other? MR MFUNANI No. MR SANDI Why then is he accusing you of this, were you in conflict before? MR MFUNANI Mr Chairperson I said that he may be accusing me because I was the one who arrested him. If you listened very carefully when he was testifying he never mentioned my name as one of the people who were torturing him. MR SANDI REV FINCA Thank you Mr Mfunani, we are not making any findings concerning this matter. When we take a decision to include your name as a perpetrator in this case we will inform you so that we can get more representation from your side if you so wish but for now we thank you and we thank Mr Mbandazayo. MR MBANDAZAYO Thank you Mr Chairperson. REV FINCA Are you not appearing for Mr Mfundisi? MR MBANDAZAYO I think Mr Nompozolo is appearing for Captain Mfundisi. REV FINCA Who? MR MBANDAZAYO Mr Nompozolo is his surname he is appearing Superintendent Mfundisi. REV FINCA MR NOMPOZOLO Thank you Mr Chairman, Mr Chairman my name is Lindile Nompozolo from Nompozolo ............. Attorneys in East London. REV FINCA How do you spell that? No the first name is okay, the surname? MR NOMPOZOLO Nompozolo. REV FINCA Nompozolo. MR NOMPOZOLO Yes. REV FINCA And you are appearing for Mr Umhlangabise Mfundisi? MR NOMPOZOLO REV FINCA Thank you very much Sir. Thank you for appearing before the Commission Mr Mfundisi, please stand to take the oath. Reverend Xundu will lead you. MR UMHLANGABISE MMFUNDISI (sworn states) REV FINCA MR NOMPOZOLO Thank you Mr Chairperson. What is your rank? MR MMFUNDISI MR NOMPOZOLO Presently? MR MMFUNDISI Yes. MR NOMPOZOLO And on the sixteen of July 1987, what was your rank? MR MMFUNDISI A Captain. MR NOMPOZOLO Who was your employer at that time? MR MMFUNDISI The Ciskeian Police, the Government of the Ciskei. MR NOMPOZOLO On the day in question we have already heard that there was a raid or a mission, can you confirm your role there? MR MMFUNDISI There was indeed a raid and my role was to be the Commander of the entire raid. I had to answer to all questions and see to it that the raid went smoothly. I was a specialist in weapons therefore I had to inspect the whole ............ MR NOMPOZOLO The testimony of Mr Zwelakhe Bikitsha says that you instructed Mxhata to take him to the police station and to make him talk, what is your answer to that? MR MMFUNDISI It is true, I gave Mxhata orders to take him to the police station whoever I did not say that he must make him talk. MR NOMPOZOLO The evidence of Bikitsha alleges that you and other policemen tortured him although he was not specific. MR MMFUNDISI I have never tortured him in any way. REV FINCA Are there questions? Do you have any objection to us asking the witness some questions? MR NOMPOZOLO No objections Mr Chairman. REV FINCA Thank you. Reverend Xundu? REV XUNDU MR MMFUNDISI It would happen. Some people would be charged and sentenced and some people would even be killed. There are those who do not appear before the court. REV XUNDU Would it happen that if you wanted information from someone that person would be tortured. MR MMFUNDISI Yes, it would happen but not daily. REV XUNDU Thank you Mr Chairperson. REV FINCA Mr Sandi? MR SANDI Thank you Mr Chairperson. I did not understand your answer to Reverend Xundu clearly as people started laughing. MR MMFUNDISI MR SANDI Thank you Mr Chairperson. Perhaps Mr Chairperson you would allow me to make this statement before I ask questions. The alleged perpetrators remind me of a book I once read in which it said there are three types of lazy people. MR MMFUNDISI It is not me I do not know anything about it and I do not care. MR SANDI Let us go back to the methods used when people are being interrogated, what methods would be used to interrogate people? MR MMFUNDISI Let me rectify this I did not say that it is when people are arrested it only happens sometimes. MR SANDI MR MMFUNDISI According to the law one would interrogate the person by questioning beyond that would not be according to the law. MR SANDI As a policeman can you tell me what methods would you use to interrogate people that are arrested? If you wanted information from a prisoner what method would you use? MR MMFUNDISI I personally would be very careful especially if the case was mine because I would want the case to be successful. I would not interrogate a person without information I would rather leave that person. I would succeed because as I interrogate this person it would come across that I know more than the prisoner. MR SANDI Mr Mfundisi the questions that we would ask as the Commission are not because we do not know the answers to the questions. Each witness appearing before us would swear and be on oath to tell the truth even though we have the answers but because we want to ascertain the truthfulness of the person we ask questions to. Who gave orders on this day when you were commanding the raid as I need clarity here? MR MMFUNDISI What orders or instructions about the raid or what? MR SANDI MR MMFUNDISI A week before the raid White men from the Security Branch in East London came telling me that there is an anonymous letter which they received and this letter contained information about the Security Police. The letter alleged that we wanted Matembo Umwuso who stayed in the house of a certain Mr Bikitsha. This person proceeded saying that we must raid this house as there are arms and explosives which are unlawful and this person was at home most of the time especially during the day however at night this person goes out. This person said he wanted to get rid of the person with the illegal arms. I asked for this letter but it was not given to me and I was then requested by the Security Branch Officers from East London to help them find this man. I was a bit concerned because this was not the usual way of getting information. It probably was someone who was close to this family or who knew them very well but the question was, who was this person. I took the telephone directory there was only one Bikitsha that was listed next to Mount Ruth. I was a bit confused because a second Bikitsha came up within the area. somebody phone saying that this anonymous person phoned again and this person was urging us to make this raid. This time I got the chance to read the letter. We did not know whether this was a trap and we did not know who Bikitsha was. We summoned a task force and handed this over to them. After the task force had searched the house we would be allowed to search the house. It was .......................... who would lead this. MR SANDI Excuse me Mr Mfundisi you have answered me I just wanted to know where you got the orders from. Apparently you got this from the Republic of South Africa even though you were the police of the Republic of Ciskei. Let us conclude this matter. You said you are an expert where explosives are concerned. MR MMFUNDISI Yes. MR SANDI Could you clarify that? REV FINCA Order please we are not in a circus we are in a hearing, order please. MR MMFUNDISI MR SANDI When did you become an expert in explosives? MR MMFUNDISI In 1985. MR SANDI Did you study? MR MMFUNDISI Yes. MR SANDI REV FINCA Thank you Mr ...................... Mr Mfundisi you were listening when ... Do you confirm that you arrested Mr Bikitsha? MR MMFUNDISI No. REV FINCA Did you confirm that Mr Bikitsha was handed over to you after having been arrested? MR MMFUNDISI Yes. REV FINCA Was this at Mdantsane Security Offices? MR MMFUNDISI REV FINCA Therefore you are disputing the fact that he was taken to Mdantsane Security Police and handed over to you? MR MMFUNDISI REV FINCA MR MMFUNDISI REV FINCA Who had a higher rank you or Mfunani, who was superior? MR MMFUNDISI It was myself. REV FINCA Who was in charge of detainees? Clarify. MR MMFUNDISI Lets start here. If somebody is arrested because he is a threat to the Security according to Section 26 of the Ciskei it is the panel therefore? REV FINCA Sir we are not talking under general here please, lets not waste time. We are not under general here we are talking about a specific person that is Mr Bikitsha. Who was in charge of the detention of Bikitsha for purposes of interrogation. The evidence which has been placed before us is that he was handed over to you. MR MMFUNDISI The person that was in charge was the person heading the Security the person who was responsible at the time was Colonel Nonhonho. REV FINCA Why did it take us so long to tell us it was Colonel Nonhonho? Therefore it was not you it was Colonel Nonhonho and so if we want to know the truth about this whether Mr Bikitsha was violated we should as Colonel Nonhonho? MR MMFUNDISI REV FINCA Who was more senior between the two of you? MR MMFUNDISI It was Colonel Nonhonho. REV FINCA Thank you very much. MR MMFUNDISI REV FINCA Mr Mfundisi, we are going to request that we go into greater detail with you later. We do not make a finding yet as we need a lot of clarity on this matter we will send you a notice of Section 29 and request that you appear before us to give us more detail and clarity. For now we give you a break until we meet under Section 29, thank you. REV FINCA Are you appearing for Mr Mtatha as well? Mr Mtatha please? Mr Nompozolo could you please identify yourself again and tell us who your client is. MR NOMPOZOLO REV FINCA Thank you very much, Mr Umshlobo Mtatha we would like you to take an oath. MR UMSHLOBO MTATHA (sworn states) REV FINCA MR NOMPOZOLO Is it correct that you are employed by the South African Police services? MR MTATHA MR NOMPOZOLO On the sixteenth of July 1987 were you employed by the Ciskeian Police. MR MTATHA Yes, that is correct. MR NOMPOZOLO As what? MR MTATHA I was a Sergeant in the Security Branch. MR NOMPOZOLO Can you cast your mind back to the events of the sixteen of July 1987 particularly about the raid which took place at house number 7409, NU 3? MR MTATHA Yes, I can do that Sir. MR NOMPOZOLO There somebody was killed and a number of policemen were also killed, is that correct? MR MTATHA Yes, that is correct MR NOMPOZOLO A suspect was arrested, do you know the name of the suspect? MR MTATHA Yes, I do know the name. MR NOMPOZOLO What was his name? MR MTATHA Mr Bikitsha. MR NOMPOZOLO Do you know who arrested him? MR MTATHA Major Mfunani arrested him. MR NOMPOZOLO After the arrest what happened to Bikitsha? MR MTATHA He was arrested by Major Mfunani and I escorted him to the police station where I handed him over to the other police but I was standing outside. MR NOMPOZOLO In you Affidavit you have attached an extract from the Occurrence Book, is that correct? MR MTATHA Yes, that is correct. MR NOMPOZOLO Can you read to the Commission what was written at 16:05. MR MTATHA Detention. Sergeant Zinzile details blackmail Zwelakhe Bikitsha under Section 26. Instruction from Colonel Nonhonho. MR NOMPOZOLO Thank you. You heard the allegations from Mr Bikitsha that you were one of his assailants. MR MTATHA Yes, I did hear those allegations. MR NOMPOZOLO What do you say to that? MR MTATHA Those allegations are not true. MR NOMPOZOLO After he was detained did you ever have contact with him? MR MTATHA MR NOMPOZOLO Where you his investigating officer? MR MTATHA No, I was never his investigating officer. MR NOMPOZOLO MR MTATHA REV FINCA Thank you very much Mr Mtatha, in your last answer you said that he was making a mistake. He made a mistake in that you were instructed by Captain Mfundisi but he was assaulted by Mr Nonhonho? MR MTATHA REV FINCA Mr Nompozolo do you want to consult with your client? MR NOMPOZOLO Yes, thank you Mr Chairman. REV FINCA Just switch of the mike whilst you are consulting. MR NOMPOZOLO Thank you Mr Chairman. The witness wants to rephrase his answer. REV FINCA Go ahead Mr Mtatha. MR MTATHA I never got such instructions. The instruction I got was to escourt a car to the police station not to torture him so that he can give us some information. REV FINCA Thank you, are there questions? Reverend Xundu? REV XUNDU MR MTATHA I did hear that. REV XUNDU What did that mean? MR MTATHA Sometime a person would be asked questions concerning a charge laid against him or ... REV XUNDU You said sometimes, what would happen at other times? MR MTATHA Or he would be instructed to write down what he was saying. REV XUNDU He would not be tortured? MR MTATHA He would not be assaulted he would just be told and given tea and be told to write down because we wanted the truth from him REV XUNDU Secondly, you said you were present in the raid on the house, is that correct? MR MTATHA Yes. REV XUNDU You were armed? MR MTATHA Yes, I was. REV XUNDU Did you shoot? MR MTATHA No, I did not shoot Sir. REV XUNDU But your colleagues did? MR MTATHA REV XUNDU There was no order that you must shoot? MR MTATHA No, there was no order as Colonel who was superior in that operation there was no order saying that we must shoot. REV XUNDU So those that did use their weapons shot out of their own? MR MTATHA Yes, because they saw the situation fit. REV XUNDU They took the law into their own hands? MR MTATHA Yes, that is correct Sir. REV XUNDU Thank you Mr Chairperson. REV FINCA Tiny Maya? MISS MAYA Thank you Mr Chairperson. Mr Mtatha I have two questions for you. First of all the copy of the occurrence book attached to your Affidavit, what is the purpose thereof is it because you know the person who wrote this occurrence or do you want to clarify to us who arrested this person? MR MTATHA I wanted to clarify who arrested him and who took him to prison. MISS MAYA According to this extract it is said that Mr Bikitsha was arrested under the orders of Colonel Nonhonho, do you have any knowledge concerning that? MR MTATHA According to this Section, Section 26 when you read it is said that the person who has a right to arrest a person is a Colonel and his Superiors. The sub-ordinates do not have a right to arrest a person. MISS MAYA You gave us this statement saying that instructions were from Colonel Nonhonho, do you have any knowledge of that? Let me leave that question and say that you heard Inspector Mfundisi saying that the person was responsible for the detainees was Colonel Nonhonho, is that correct? MR MTATHA Yes, that is correct. MISS MAYA In other words if a person arrested for interrogation Colonel Nonhonho would have a knowledge of that? MR MTATHA Yes, that is correct. MISS MAYA MR NOMPOZOLO He wants to consult with Mr Chairman. Thank you. MISS MAYA REV FINCA MR MTATHA According to the OB extract Mr Chairperson I do confirm because it is written this way according to the OB extract. REV FINCA The question asked was do you confirm that Mr Nonhonho gave you the instructions and did he give you these instructions while he was on holiday or was he present? MR MTATHA REV FINCA You saw the police who were in that operation, was Mr Nonhonho there? MR MTATHA REV FINCA MR NOMPOZOLO Thank you Mr Chairman. MR MTATHA Thank you Mr Chairman. REV FINCA MISS CRICHTON Thank you Mr Chairperson. STATEMENT I, LOUIS L NONHONHO, hereby state as follows: I was previously employed as a Major General in the former Ciskei Police. Prior to my appointment as Major General, in fact, shortly after I was promoted to the rank of Lieutenant Colonel, I was placed as head of the Security Branch. When I arrived on the scene I saw that two members of the Police had been murdered and another person with an AK47 in his hand was found dead on the scene. Some weeks later, whilst I was on leave, I was informed that Zwelakhe had been arrested. I had nothing to do with his arrest and I deny the allegations contained n his charge against me. I cannot understand why this matter is being brought to the Truth and Reconciliation Commission. This matter was previously finalised in the Bisho High Court. The matter was finalised under Case Number 19/88, when Zwelakhe received an undisclosed sum from the Ciskei Government in full and final settlement of his claim. therefore, submit that there is absolutely no reason for this matter to be brought before this Commission. DATED at EAST LONDON this 4 day of JUNE 1997. _________________________ (SIGNED) LOUIS L NONHONHO MISS CRICHTON Thank you Mr Chairperson. REV FINCA HEARING ADJOURNS