hrvtrans HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATIONS, SUBMISSIONS QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS 1997-06-10 EAST LONDON 2 MRS NALEDI SITANDIWE ABIGAIL GUSH NKULA EC0118/96 ELN https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=55233&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/hrvtrans/hrvel2/elngush.htm REV FINCA REV XUNDU Thank you Mr Chairperson. Is the lady next to you going to speak as well? MRS GUSH-NKULA Yes. REV XUNDU What is her name? MRS GUSH-NKULA ............. Gush. REV XUNDU Thank you. Can I swear them in. MRS NALEDI SITANDIWE ABIGAIL GUSH-NKULA (sworn states) REV XUNDU Thank you. MRS GUSH-NKULA (sworn states) REV FINCA MISS MAYA MRS GUSH-NKULA Yes. MISS MAYA Please tell us more about Thembelihle who was he how was he shot and when. MRS GUSH-NKULA MISS MAYA Yes. MRS GUSH-NKULA MISS MAYA Could we assist each other here? Did you bury peacefully? MRS GUSH-NKULA MISS MAYA Did you lay charges as you seem to be aware of who the perpetrators are? MRS GUSH-NKULA No, there was no court case. I cannot remember whether three or four months had elapsed after the funeral and we were called because there was going to be an inquest. We went there and after a minute they asked if the Gush family was there and we said yes. The Magistrate said the inquest concerning your son nobody can be held responsible for his death. MISS MAYA Therefore the inquest proceedings were not in your presence, you were just informed of the conclusions? MRS GUSH-NKULA MISS MAYA Was this Magistrate from the area or from another area? MRS GUSH-NKULA MISS MAYA Had you seen him prior to that? MRS GUSH-NKULA No. MISS MAYA And after that? MRS GUSH-NKULA No. MISS MAYA Did you got to an attorney? MRS GUSH-NKULA MISS MAYA Do you know who this doctor is? MRS GUSH-NKULA MISS MAYA Your brother was thirty one years old did he have a wife and children? MRS GUSH-NKULA MISS MAYA Who stays with these children? MRS GUSH-NKULA They stay with my mother. The eldest ... MISS MAYA MRS GUSH I just want to take over. The eldest child was terribly affected by this incident. He was very close to his father and his lifestyle deteriorated. He is in a reformatory in Cape Town. MISS MAYA How old is the child? MRS GUSH MISS MAYA MRS GUSH Two requests that are strong in my heart. I am not bitter I do not want revenge but my eyes long to see the man who killed my eldest son, my only son. MISS MAYA REV FINCA REV FINCA There are requests before us that Mtozami Madikane and Sitile Gola would like to appear before the Commisison. Could you please step down Mr Mtozami Madikane first of all accompanied by his legal representative Dudley van Heerden. Mr van Heerden welcome would you like to confirm your name, the name of your client and the reason for appearing before the Commission. MR VAN HEERDEN REV FINCA Thank you Mr van Heerden. We will have to swear Mr Madikane in. His full name is Mtozami is that correct? Mtozami Madikane? We would like you to take the oath so that you can testify before the Commission. REV XUNDU Thank you Mr Chairperson. Mtozami Madikane please stand up. MR MTOZAMI MADIKANE (sworn states) REV FINCA You may sit down Mr Madikane. Before I hand over to Mr van Heerden I would like to ask the people in this hearing to be well behaved so that our proceedings can be done with dignity. Our work here is to give respect to everybody appearing before the Commission no matter how we feel about that particular person. If he is here we have to protect him by all means and we have to show him respect. He does not have to feel intimidated. I urge the people from Mdantsane, the lovely people from Mdantsane to have respect for the witness and to our proceedings so that it can proceed with dignity, thank you. Mr van Heerden you are going to lead your client and you can do seated because this is not a court. MR VAN HEERDEN Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Madikane you have heard what the complainant has said in this particular matter. Can you proceed and tell us what happened on the eleventh of February 1990 and your response to the allegations made by the complainant? You may proceed. MR MADIKANE REV FINCA Thank you very much Mr Madikane. We are just going to ask you client a few questions for him to clarify things which are not clear to us at this stage Mr van Heerden. As I said to you earlier we are not contemplating making a finding at this stage. If at any time we are contemplating making a finding which will define Mr Madikane as a perpetrator we will serve a notice on him and we will inform him that we are contemplating making a finding but just for the clarity of the Commission we will raise a few questions on what he has said to us. Let me speak in Xhosa referring to you Mr Madikane. You said in your statement that there were different police stations and you were patrolling different areas on that particular day, where were you patrolling from? MR MADIKANE We were not patrolling from any way but the police were to report according to their stations. I went to NU 1 to report to my police station, police from NU 13 went to report to NU 13. REV FINCA What was the reason for this? MR MADIKANE The reason was that there was going to be a march on that day. REV FINCA Was the march okay? MR MADIKANE Yes, it was. REV FINCA Where did this march come from? MR MADIKANE REV FINCA MR MADIKANE REV FINCA What did you hear? MR MADIKANE REV FINCA Please give us in detail the report you got over the radio telling you what was happening in NU 13. MR MADIKANE Please repeat your question. REV FINCA Please tell us clearly and in detail what you could hear from the radio. What was happening in NU 13 because you said that everything that was happening in NU 13 you could hear it over the radio? MR MADIKANE We heard that people were lowering the flag in NU 13. REV FINCA Please continue Mr Madikane. MR MADIKANE They said that people were lowering the flag in NU 13. REV FINCA Is that all? What else did you hear over the radio? MR MADIKANE That is all. REV FINCA You just heard that? MR MADIKANE Yes, we heard that people were in NU 13 and they were going to lower the flag. That is all I heard. REV FINCA Did you hear that people were shot? MR MADIKANE REV FINCA According to your knowledge were there any people who were shot on that particular day? MR MADIKANE The only person I heard of that was shot in NU 13 was Thembelihle the one referred to earlier. I heard that he was shot by me and Gola. REV FINCA Where did you hear that Thembelihle Gush was shot in NU 13. MR MADIKANE REV FINCA This Unit NU 13 were you working in that Unit? MR MADIKANE No, I was working in NU 1 the police station from NU 1. The police working in NU 13 were those reporting to that police station. I was in NU 1. REV FINCA When you heard this allegation that you shot Thembelihle Gush in NU 13 did you try to investigate this matter? Did you try to find out details from the police of NU 13 about this? Did you go to the police from NU 13 to find out what exactly happened? MR MADIKANE No, I was not interested in investigating that because I knew that the police from NU 13 were in NU 13. I was not interested because I knew that I was not there. You can go in NU 13 and you will see the police who were there on that day. REV FINCA You were not interested in knowing exactly what happened in NU 13? MR MADIKANE REV FINCA Tiny Maya? MISS MAYA MR MADIKANE He is a policeman. MISS MAYA Do you know him? MR MADIKANE Yes, I know him. MISS MAYA Were you together on this particular day or did you spend any time together? MR MADIKANE MISS MAYA MR MADIKANE MISS MAYA There is a car referred to by Mrs Gush which was patrolling in the township, do you know anything about this car? MR MADIKANE No, I only know the car I was in. MISS MAYA Do you know the make of the car? MR MADIKANE It was an Opel Monza. There were two Opel Monzas in NU 13 and one from NU 1. There were three Opel Monzas in Mdantsane at the time. We were using an Opel Monza with Inspector Bult and I think there were two Opel Monzas in NU 13. MISS MAYA Do you know whether Gola was using a car? MR MADIKANE MISS MAYA When you were given instructions on this day what were the instructions? MR MADIKANE We were told to patrol the area so that people cannot destroy the Government Buildings. MISS MAYA In other words you were only patrolling? MR MADIKANE Yes, we were only patrolling we were not instructed to go and disrupt the people who were marching but we were just patrolling around the Government Buildings. MISS MAYA The last question. Were you armed? MR MADIKANE Yes, as detectives we have pistols with us all the time. I think the people from the police from other areas were also armed. MISS MAYA Do you have any knowledge of the number of police who were placed in other areas? MR MADIKANE No. MISS MAYA In your area how many were you? MR MADIKANE I cannot count. There were many of us. REV FINCA June Crichton? MISS CRICHTON Mr Madikane I want to ask you two questions. The first one just a short answer, were you able to speak to people in police cars in other areas through your radio? MR MADIKANE Repeat? MISS CRICHTON Can you hear me? MR MADIKANE Yes. MISS CRICHTON Were you able to converse or speak to people who were in police cars in other areas? You could hear what was going on in NU 13 but could you actually contact them on your radio? MR MADIKANE On that day there were cars all around and in Fort Jackson. There were many people in NU 13. The cars were only watching these people they could not even go into NU 13. We could hear people from the cars not from the stations. MISS CRICHTON MR MADIKANE I said that there were police from NU 12 and NU 13. We were in NU 1 patrolling our area. We did not know that there was a problem but we knew that there were people who were lowering the flag and there were police to sort out that problem in that area. MISS CRICHTON So I just want to clarify that you were not called in over your radio to come and assist at all? MR MADIKANE No, we were never called. MISS CRICHTON REV FINCA Mr Sandi? MR SANDI Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Madikane let me start this way, do you know the work of the Commission and very briefly can you please tell us what the duty of the Commission is? MR MADIKANE MR SANDI MR MADIKANE MR SANDI MR MADIKANE MR SANDI How did you plan to challenge this? MR MADIKANE I planned to challenge it because I was accused of killing a person who I never met. MR SANDI MR MADIKANE Yes, I wanted to clear my name but the person in authority said that I must stop this. MR SANDI Who was in authority at the time? MR MADIKANE I think it was a Mr Songusho. MR SANDI How long did you work in the police force at that time in the Ciskei? MR MADIKANE MR SANDI At the time of the bus boycott were you a policeman? MR MADIKANE I was in college in Hamanskraal at the time. I was not here I was in Hamanskraal College. MR SANDI REV FINCA MR MADIKANE REV FINCA What is your position? MR MADIKANE REV FINCA MR MADIKANE REV FINCA Mr Sandi? MR SANDI MR MADIKANE MR SANDI What is the reason for this? MR MADIKANE The reason for that is that I work very hard and I do my job very well. MR SANDI MR MADIKANE MR SANDI But you are an Inspector? MR MADIKANE Yes, that is correct. MR SANDI Thank you, thank you Mr Chairperson. REV FINCA ongoing investigation by our investigation unit. MR VAN HEERDEN Thank you Mr Chairman may I stand up? REV FINCA Please. REV FINCA Mr S.S. Gola please come forward together Mr Mbandazayo. Mr Mbandazayo I would like to confirm your name and the name of your client and why you are appearing before the Commission to-day. MR MBANDAZAYO Thank you Mr Chairman I confirm that my name is Lugani Mbandazayo and I represent Mr Gola, Sitile Simon Gola thank you. REV FINCA Mr Gola what is your full name? MR GOLA Sitile. REV FINCA Before we hand over to Mr Mbandazayo so that he can lead you please stand so that we can swear you in. Reverend Xundu will swear you in. REV XUNDU Thank you Mr Chairperson. MR SITILE SIMON GOLA (sworn states) REV FINCA MR MBANDAZAYO Mr Chairman as you are aware you have a summary of the evidence in front of you which is going to be presented by my client. At this stage I will try and lead him on the points which have been raised in that statement. Mr Gola you were here when the complainant was giving evidence before the Commission can you in your own words tell the Commission what happened on the day in question. MR GOLA First of all I would like to thank this Commission for having come to Mdantsane so that we are able to talk about this accusation. On the said day I was on duty. I was driving in a Ford Sierra GCE 23479 when I heard a report on the radio that the people were trying to lower a flag at NU 13 police station and all the police cars should go there. As I was alone in the car I drove and got to NU 13 where there were a whole lot of people but nothing was happening at that time. I was driving behind a police van. This van parked on one side at the NU 13 police station and I parked on the other side. REV FINCA Thank you Mr Sitile Gola. Mr Mbandazayo may we ask a few questions? MR MBANDAZAYO No objections Mr Chairman. REV FINCA Mr Sandi? MR SANDI MR MBANDAZAYO MR SANDI Who mentioned your names? MR GOLA It just went around. MR SANDI Was it on the radio, in the newspapers or was it people? MR GOLA MR SANDI Have you ever shot anyone as a policeman. MR GOLA MR SANDI MR GOLA No, I do not. MR SANDI Did you carry a gun as a policeman? MR GOLA Yes, even now and previously as well. MR SANDI On the day that you ran for cover did you shoot? MR GOLA MR SANDI Thank you. REV FINCA Miss Maya? MISS MAYA Thank you Mr Chairperson. Mr Gola just a few questions. Were you stationed at NU 13? MR GOLA No, I was stationed in Bisho. MISS MAYA Did you come from Bisho on this day or when did you leave Bisho to go to NU 13? MR GOLA On that day I was instructed to work in Mdantsane to keep order. MISS MAYA When were these instructions given, where they given on that day or previously? MR GOLA On that particular day. MISS MAYA What exactly were the instructions? MR GOLA That order must be kept in the entire Mdantsane. MISS MAYA What would you have done if there were damages? MR GOLA MISS MAYA MR GOLA To protect the police station premises and the police. MISS MAYA How would you protect yourselves, what were you going to do there? MR GOLA It would have depended on the situation. MISS MAYA When you rushed to NU 13, what were your intentions? MR GOLA To protect the police and police premises. MISS MAYA MR GOLA I said that as I parked the car there was a bang and when I looked my car was being stoned. Two of the stones smashed the window and I crawled into the police station. MISS MAYA Where were the rest of the policemen, could they see you or were you much further? MR GOLA If we could go to NU 13 I would explain this. If this is the police station there were a whole lot of cars parked right next to the police station. MISS MAYA Did you see other policemen when you were parking? MR GOLA Yes, but because of the stones everybody tried to run for cover. MISS MAYA Did you know the policemen at NU 13? MR GOLA Yes, I knew some of them, some were from Zwelitsha and others were from Bisho. MISS MAYA Did you see the police that were shooting and were there police when you got up? MR GOLA Yes. As I said I looked around when I heard the bang and I ran for cover when I realised that there were a lot of stones being thrown. MISS MAYA MR GOLA I said that shots were fired by the police. MISS MAYA MR GOLA I have answered your question. REV FINCA Mr Gola, please answer the question, whoever is asking the question does not matter please just answer it. According to your statement shots were fired by the police. MR GOLA I said by the police. REV FINCA Who were they shooting at? MR GOLA REV FINCA Would police shoot other police? MR GOLA REV FINCA After the shooting was anyone shot? MR GOLA I did not see anyone but my car as well as other police cars were damaged. REV FINCA You say that you got an instruction that you must go to NU 13, was this to all the other policemen or just you? MR GOLA This instruction was to all the police that were patrolling. REV FINCA Were you here when Mr Madikane gave evidence? MR GOLA Yes. REV FINCA Did you hear his evidence? MR GOLA Yes, and I cannot match with mine. REV FINCA Reverend Xundu? REV XUNDU Thank you, Mr Chairperson. You say that you were sent to go and look at the damages. MR GOLA Yes, that was the instruction from the control office. REV XUNDU What were you going to do to people that were marching there? MR GOLA I said that we would have to assess the situation and then respond. REV XUNDU What were you supposed to do? MR GOLA We were not given any direct instruction. REV XUNDU Were you trained in a way that when people are causing unrest in a particular manner you act in a specific manner yourselves? MR GOLA Yes, we were. REV XUNDU What were you supposed to do as police to control the crowds? MR GOLA At that particular moment? REV XUNDU Any moment when you go to a place of chaos or unrest? MR GOLA Well there are police trained specifically for that would that answer you better. I was just called to those premises to protect them and the police. REV XUNDU MR GOLA I had my own pistol. REV XUNDU So you went there not trained to control a crowd and depending on your pistol therefore if you are shocked you shoot? MR GOLA REV XUNDU Thank you Mr Chairperson. REV FINCA Thank you Mr Gola just one small thing, what was your rank at the time? MR GOLA REV FINCA Thank you for your evidence, we are now more confused than we were initially. MR GOLA REV FINCA MR MBANDAZAYO Thank you.