hrvtrans TRUTH AND RECONCILIATION COMMISSION PRIVATE, HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATIONS, SUBMISSIONS QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS 1997-06-12 EAST LONDON 4 PATRICIA GXIDI EC1567/96ELN MDANTSANE https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=55247&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/hrvtrans/hrvel2/gxidi.htm CHAIRPERSON: Can we have the next witness, Mrs Patricia Gxidi. Mrs Shumikazi Sara Jako. Our witnesses for today, these are our last witnesses. We would like to ask Reverend Xundu to help you take an oath. REV XUNDU: Thank you Chairperson. I will start with you Patricia Gxidi. PATRICIA GXIDI: (Duly sworn in, states). REV XUNDU: Thank you Mam. You will make a testimony under oath. SHUMIKAZI SARA JAKO: (Duly sworn in, states). REV XUNDU: Thank you Mam. CHAIRPERSON: Mrs June Crichton. MS CRICHTON: Can you put earphones on Mrs Gxidi, please. Can you hear me Mrs Gxidi? MRS GXIDI: Yes, I can hear you. MS CRICHTON: Would you mind if I called you Phumla? MRS GXIDI: I do not mind. MS CRICHTON: Thank you very much. Phumla, you are going to tell us about an event that happened to you in July of 1985 when you were on your way back from the funeral service for the Cradock Four. You were travelling from Cradock back to Queenstown and at that time, according to your testimony, you were four months, no, I am sorry, five months pregnant. Is that correct? MRS GXIDI: Yes, that is correct. MS CRICHTON: If I may I would like to lead you in your questions so that, in the questions I put to you so that we keep the order of your story, which is very important, in order. So I will ask you questions and interrupt you occasionally, if I may. The first thing I want to check with you is that the bus was stopped at a roadblock. Is that correct? MRS GXIDI: Yes, that is correct. MS CRICHTON: That was at Whittle-Sea? MRS GXIDI: Yes. MS CRICHTON: Who was it who took you off the bus? MRS GXIDI: The Ciskeian soldiers. MS CRICHTON: And at about what time of the day was that? MRS GXIDI: We were coming, we left Cradock after five. It was just before eight. MS CRICHTON: Now I would like you to explain in your own words to us exactly what happened when they took you off that bus, remembering that you were four months, five months pregnant at the time. MRS GXIDI: When we were about to arrive at Whittle-Sea a lot of soldiers came around and they stopped the bus asking us where we were coming from. We told them that we were coming from Cradock. They asked us which funeral, whose funeral we attended. We said that we were coming from Matthew Goniwe's and others funeral. They asked us why we left funerals in our area and attended funerals in Cradock. They said that we knew everything that was happening there. They asked us to sing songs which were sung in that funeral. We sang church songs and we told the that Mxenge was a speaker and they took us out of the bus and they took pamphlets in our bus and t-shirts. They told us to lie down on our stomachs. They hit us. Some of them had hose pipes. They spread water to us. Two of us were pregnant and these soldiers wanted to kick us so that we can lose our children. Soldiers were kicking us. They were riding on top of us. MS CRICHTON: Phumla, can I interrupt you to ask you just to make sure that we have this on record. Are you saying that they knew that there were two pregnant women there and that even though you were lying on your stomachs, pregnant as you were, they were kicking you? MRS GXIDI: People said that there were people who were pregnant and they said that they want these pregnant women, because they are going to give birth to leaders. This happened until two in the morning and the police from Queenstown, White police from Queenstown came. They had a list wanting people who attended the funeral. They found others, but they did not find other people who were in the list. They asked us one by one questions about our interests to go to the funeral. I told them that my parents are in Cradock and I was studying in Cradock, I knew these people. They then assaulted me. There was one police by the name of Wanders, who was a Ciskeian police, from Cradock who was necklaced. They then said that I was one of the people in Cradock who necklaced this police. They then assaulted me. After that they released us in the morning. We were swollen. We went back home. Some of them were arrested due to that list. I went to the doctor, because I was five months pregnant. My legs were swollen up and I was working for Buffalo Timber. I did not go to work on that particular day. I stayed until the time for me to give birth. I gave birth. When my child was growing up we did not see anything wrong with this child, but when the child started to attend school he was not grasping anything. He was doing sub, standard A and I changed schools. I took him to Dumangeni Mental Hospital in Queenstown to be examined. A psychiatrist was called and he said that this situation might be caused by the fact that I was fighting with my child's, child while I was pregnant. I then said that was not the case, but I told him the whole story. My child's father, my child is 11 years old now. I took him to the special school in town. He would tear up his clothes at Dumangeni Mental Hospital. He came back at home one day and he was injured in his body. When I took him to the clinic the nurses said that I was careless about the child. I told them that I was working, I could not look after him all the time. In this special school here in town they said that he got onto the tree and he fell, he broke his arm. He does anything, he, you would get there and he would be bleeding, you will not know what had happened. I have to look after him. If something can be done for this child. He does anything, even to other people. I am scared that people are going to hurt him. MS CRICHTON: Is he your only child Phumla? MRS GXIDI: I have two children. My eldest is 25 years of age. MS CRICHTON: And the other one is the, is this child that you have been telling us about? MRS GXIDI: Yes, is the 11 year old. MS CRICHTON: I just want to ask you a couple of questions now. You said at the time you were working for Buffalo Timber. Did you continue to work for them until you had the child? MRS GXIDI: I was not working there all the time. It was a part-time job. MS CRICHTON: And until he went to pre-primary school were you unaware that there were problems in his mental health? MRS GXIDI: I was not aware. I thought he was just very naughty. I was told to stop shouting at him. I must accept him as he is. MS CRICHTON: When you consulted with the psychiatrist and he told you what he did and then you told him the story of what had happened to you when you were taken off that bus and the beating and assaulting that you had, was his opinion changed, what did he say then? MRS GXIDI: He did not say anything except that he was going to try to put him into a special school. He took a whole lot of toys, because I told that this child was retarded mentally. He put a whole lot of toys before him from a year old childrens' toys. He was about eight or nine years. He left, he did not enjoy the toys that were appropriate for his age group. MS CRICHTON: Phumla, I think what I am trying to get at and what I want you to answer for me is have you ever had any medical opinion given to you that the reason why this child is as he is, is because of what happened to you when you were pregnant on that bus? MRS GXIDI: Well, what I told them is that I never fought with the child's father. I told them that I had been beaten when I was coming back from Cradock. They did not say anything after that. MS CRICHTON: Phumla, I thank you and the last question that I need to ask you then is I see in your statement you are asking for assistance that this child, Lwando, will be able to attend some kind of special school and have a suitable education. Is that your request? MRS GXIDI: Yes, that is my request. MS CRICHTON: Is there anything further you want to add to what you have said already? MRS GXIDI: No Mam. MS CRICHTON: Perhaps my colleagues would like to ask some questions. Madam Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON: Thank you June. Are there any questions? Thank you Mrs Gxidi. No further questions. I will ask Mrs Crichton to thank you. MS CRICHTON: Phumla, an experience such as you had is one that will live with you for the rest of the life, your life, not only in your memory, but also in the evidence of your child and his condition. We thank you for coming to tell us this story. We weep with you for what has happened, but we trust that as we move forward, schooling will be found for him and that the Commission will be able to, through the President's Office, assist in finding the correct place for him to grow to his full potential. Thank you for coming. CHAIRPERSON: Thank you June. Thank your Mrs Gxidi. (Not translated) Mrs Jako (not translated Advocate Ntsiki Sandi (not translated). ADV SANDI: Thank you Madam Chair. Mrs Jako, you have a very long story. As I look at it and the statements and conversing with you on our way to East London yesterday. Was it in 1962 or 63? MRS JAKO: 62. ADV SANDI: You were arrested. The police were looking for your husband. Is that so Mrs Jako? MRS JAKO: I was not arrested in 1962. ADV SANDI: Let me not lead you. Please tell us what happened Mrs Jako. MRS JAKO: In 1962 I gave birth to my son, Vanele Jako, my third child after I had miscarried. After that in December, as I had given birth to my child in July, Special Branch officers came to my house asking for my husband. They searched my house upside down. They did as they pleased. ADV SANDI: Excuse me Mam, what was your husband's name? MRS JAKO: Nkululelo Jako. ADV SANDI: Was he a member of a political organisation? MRS JAKO: I did not know at the time that he was a member of a political organisation. They did not tell me why they were looking for him either. All they said was that where they found him they were going to kill him, I will never see him again. ADV SANDI: Did they find him? MRS JAKO: No, he skipped the country. I got a letter after a while. He was using a pseudonyme. Even my name was a pseudonyme. I would get letters, registered letters with money. After a while I did not get any other letters. They eventually kept the letters to themselves and would not give them to me. I did not have any money, I was just sitting at home. I thought eventually that I should go look for a job. I went to Majwalena. These Special Branch officers would come even when I was not there. I worked there at the hospital at Majwalena. One day, as we did not earn enough money I, we, I spoke with a friend of mine who is referred to as my cousin. We had to go and ask for money, because we were not earning enough. We were working for long hours. We went to ask for this money. At the time when we were trying to talk with the workers they were threatening us saying that they were going to lose their jobs and they were not asking for more money. We tried to talk to them and negotiate with them. We concluded to go to ask for more money to the people who were in authority there in the hospital. We were told that a certain doctor was not there, Dr Jansen. He was not there and we were going to get our answer when he returned. The doctor returned from where he was and the secretary called us from the office. He called all of us, called everybody. When we got to the office their secretary said that there is a request here that you were looking for more money. People said that, no, we were not complaining, we did not say that we want more money. The secretary then asked is there anybody who does not want more money. Nobody answered. He said that what we concluded is that we would increase your money with R1,00, if I remember well. ADV SANDI: Excuse me Mrs Jako, at this time you were not arrested? MRS JAKO: No. ADV SANDI: Please tell us about the time when you were arrested and taken to Cambridge. When was this? MRS JAKO: It was when I was working at the hospital, when I was arrested. ADV SANDI: Were you arrested because of your involvement in this wage increase? MRS JAKO: No. ADV SANDI: Can you please tell us about the day of your arrest when you were sent to Cambridge. Let us talk about the day of your arrest. What happened? MRS JAKO: I was together with one lady I was working with. We just finished our meal. We were sitting at home. They came in, they said that we were looking Shumikazi. Because I was scared I said I am Shumikazi. I said why are you looking for me? They said that we want you. I was wearing a nightdress at the time. They told me to dress up. While I was trying to put on my clothes they told me to wear my clothes quickly and they said that I was a Kaffir maid. Card was saying that. ADV SANDI: Did you know who this man was? MRS JAKO: Yes, people told me who this man was, because when we left my home we met another man who was working in the hospital. He asked them where are you taking this woman. They told him to shut up and we passed him. These were two White men and the third one was Card. Card was driving the car. We then went to Kwaaiman and to Umtata. It was at night at that time, it was dark. They then brought me to Cambridge. They were hitting me and assaulting me at the time. The two policemen who were with me at the back of the car. One of them was pressing my breasts while I would try to car, the other one would put his hands in my mouth. We then travelled to East London. They then detained me in Cambridge. While we were on our way Card would say that I was going to tell them the truth on the following day as I was lying to them. He said that I was going to tell them where Nkululeka was. I was taken to the cell. In the morning they brought us porridge in the cell. After that they interrogated me. Card kicked me. When I woke up I was bleeding. I had blood all over my body. Card said that I was going to tell him the truth. He asked me where Nkululeko was. They said that they were looking for Nkululeko and I was not telling them the truth. I said that I did not know. I said how could you charge me of something I do not know. I do not know where Nkululeko was. They beat me that day and they took me back to the cell. ADV SANDI: At the time of this assault was there, were there any other police? MRS JAKO: Yes, there were other White and Black policemen. ADV SANDI: Were they stopping or were they stopping Card or were they helping him? MRS JAKO: Yes, they were helping him. They were also assaulting me. He would take me to one police and that police would assault me and he would take me to another police. ADV SANDI: When were you released in the police station? MRS JAKO: They released me after two days. They asked me the bus fare. I told them to take me back home, because they took me at my home. ADV SANDI: Were you ever arrested again after that? MRS JAKO: No, but what they would do was that they were harassing my family all the time. Everybody who had my surname was harassed. They grandmother of the boy behind me was not well, was harassed. They said that I got married to the, to a cruel man. People were scared of me, they could not come near me, because they saw police vans at home all the time. Even when I was coming from a holiday in Johannesburg, at eight o' clock in the morning the police would be there next to my house. I was taken as if I have done something. ADV SANDI: You said that under this harassment and your family was also harassed. You left this town. When was this Mrs Jako? MRS JAKO: I went to Johannesburg in 1970 from the Transkei. I worked in Johannesburg from 1970 until 1976. ADV SANDI: You went to Botswana? MRS JAKO: Yes, I went to Botswana. ADV SANDI: Were you harassed while you were in Botswana? MRS JAKO: No. ADV SANDI: Where was your husband, Nkululelo Jako, the one you were talking about? MRS JAKO: At the time I was, I went to Botswana he met us in Botswana. ADV SANDI: Did you go with your children? MRS JAKO: Yes, I went with my two children. I left my younger child behind, because that child was still very young. ADV SANDI: At the time how old were these children, the one you took with? MRS JAKO: The other one was ten years old and the other was 15 years old. ADV SANDI: Where are these children now? MRS JAKO: My one child is married in Swaziland. The other one is married. She is in England. ADV SANDI: You came back in 1993? MRS JAKO: Yes, I came back in 1993. ADV SANDI: Where are you staying now Mrs Jako? MRS JAKO: I am staying with my cousin's child. I do not have a place to stay since I came back. I have been trying to look for a place to stay. I am not working. I have nothing. It is very difficult for me to get employment. I do not have a place to stay. My husband passed away in England. ADV SANDI: Mrs Jako, would you like to repeat your requests? MRS JAKO: First of all, I would like my husband's bones to be exhumed. I would like my husband's bones to be exhumed, because my husband was fighting for this country. I would like his grave to be in this country so that people in this country can be able to see his grave. Secondly, I would like to be helped to find a place to stay and I would like financial assistance, because I have nothing. ADV SANDI: Thank you Mrs Jako. I could see that that is all you have to say. Maybe if there are any questions from my co-panellists, you will be asked questions. CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Sandi. Are there any questions? REV FINCA: Thank you Chairperson. I would like to ask Mrs Jako did you stay in Tafalehashe in Elliotdale? MRS JAKO: Yes, I got married there. REV FINCA: Were you a member of PAC? MRS JAKO: I joined PAC, but at the time I was staying in Tafalehashe I was not a member. REV FINCA: Who was the leader there, was it Nkululeko or yourself? MRS JAKO: It was Nkululeko? REV FINCA: He was the leader in PAC? MRS JAKO: Yes. REV FINCA: Do you have a knowledge whether a PAC had a policy? Excuse me Chairperson. Do you have a knowledge of whether PAC had a policy to rob banks so that it can take this money to send it so that weapons can be bought? MRS JAKO: No, I know nothing about that. REV FINCA: According to your knowledge, nothing like that happened or there was no policy such as this in the PAC? MRS JAKO: No, I know nothing about it. REV FINCA: Thank you Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON: Mrs Jako, I would like to make an announcement that Mr Donald Card, you mentioned in your testimony, sent his statement through his lawyer. He wanted to answer and to dispute some of the allegations. Unfortunately, he is not here as he did in the previous days. I would like to ask Mrs June Crichton to read out the statement of Mr Donald Card. MS CRICHTON: Thank you Madam Chairperson. The statement is as follows, "I, the undersigned, Donald John Card do hereby state I am retired, 68 years of age, and reside at 5 Avon Road, Woodleigh, East London. I have been served with a notice by the Truth and Reconciliation Commission in terms of Act 34 of 1995, wherein I am informed that one Shumikazi Sarah Jako will be testifying before the Truth and Reconciliation Commission and would be implicating me. Once again, it is difficult to answer to lies when so little information is made available to me by the Commission. Also, the date makes no sense because from June 1962 to 17 December 1962 I was stationed in Port Elizabeth and did not work in this area at all. When I returned in December 1962 I was immediately put in charge of a serious murder case where two young girls had been burnt to death and then in January 1963 I was sent to Pretoria for over a month. The name Jako does ring a bell, but I cannot remember if it was a lady from Tafalehashe, near Elliotdale, or a lady from Zwelitsha. Both these people were connected to a plan brought from the PAC in exile (Lesotho) by a man by the name of Clippard Komsana. The PAC required money and plans were set afoot for the Good Hope Textile's wages to be robbed, as also the Debe Neck Post Office. Both these ladies were involved, but none of them were assaulted by me or anyone else in my presence. The story that they were assaulted in order to establish where there husbands was nonsense, because Clippard Komsana told us all about the intended robberies, and had a message from the husband, so there was no reason for assaulting them. I cannot believe that the complainants speaks of other policemen, yet only mentions my name. Why is only my name remembered? I find it strange that a number of people made false allegations against me and I request the Truth and Reconciliation Commission to investigate and to find out who is behind this whole affair and to have those who are found to be making false allegations charged with purgery. Signed by Donald John Card.". CHAIRPERSON: Thank you June. Mrs Jako, I hope that you have understood this statement and you heard it. I am going to ask a question. Clippard Komsana is mentioned here. Do you know him? MRS JAKO: I know Komsana. After exile I was in Umtata trying to find out about the subsidy, because I wanted a house. He took me into his car to the taxis as I had gone to his office. As we were chatting about Card torturing people he asked me if I remember Card speaking in Afrikaans, quoting in Afrikaans. I said I cannot understand Afrikaans. What did Card say I asked. Card apparently was saying I should be raped. CHAIRPERSON: Where do you know Mr Komsana from? Did you know him prior to your arrest or did you just meet him in Umtata? MRS JAKO: I did not know him. I would hear of him, because he was a PAC member. I was referred to him, because of the story about the subsidy. CHAIRPERSON: Did you find out where he was when Card was saying you should be raped? MRS JAKO: Apparently he was present, but I did not ask him. I asked my daughter- in-law. When I was leaving when we were arrested he got in. My daughter-in-law was together with Komsana. Komsana had gone to identify him. CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mrs Jako. Thank you so much with your story. As Mr Sandi said, it was long, and it is very painful. You were just a bride at the time. You knew nothing about politics. You did not even know that your husband was a member of the PAC. You have given up a lot in your life. You even left your own home, went into exile hoping that one day you will be a free woman in your own country. However, you came back home with no family, with no job, with no home, you had nothing. This is very painful. Thank you for opening your heart up like this before us. We trust that the requests that you have given us, as we are going to take them before the President, perhaps something can be done for you. Thank you Mrs Jako. You may take your place. We have taken our last ladies. We want to ask for forgiveness, Mrs Priscilla Maxongo, who was going to give a background and a summary of the struggle for women. If we can continue tomorrow with her, because of the circumstances. I want to thank all the women who gave themselves time to be with us here today. We thank especially, because they came here under such circumstances in this weather, struggling, having no electricity lost a lot of hours. However, they showed a lot of patience, long suffering. We did not think that you would be here until this time opening up your hearts to hear your stories. We thank you for the respect that you have given us. We want you to know that the intention we had for today, the struggle for liberation is usually perceived as being a mens' world, but I want you to know that we are aware of the contribution women have had to the liberation and the struggle for liberation in this country. Because of the way we are socialised women mostly stay at home and look after the children, bringing up the children so that the men are able to be out there. Unfortunately, because women are socialised to do that and as I perceive it, it is the most important struggle. If women were not there, the children would suffer a lot. Women tend to be altruistic in that sense. Men, sons and husbands have lost their lives being shot in the struggle. We, as a Commission as well, have listened mostly to men. We thought we would dedicate this day to you so that you may tell us your stories about yourselves in your own special day. We thank you. We want you to know that in the South African history your stories are very important and documented so that we get all details and nothing is hidden. We trust that as you have opened your hearts up like this, these stories will play or contribute a lot to reconciliation in our country. However, lastly, I would like to say we have won the struggle for liberation, but the struggle for women continues, because we are twice oppressed. Apartheid oppressed by the police, the past regime. Secondly, we are looked as the lower gender. We want everybody to know that womens' rights are also human rights. Thank you very much. I am going to hand over to Reverend Finca, telling us what is going to happen with our yesterdays witnesses. REV FINCA: Thank you Mrs Chairperson. We said yesterday that after this hearing we will try to continue with people left over from yesterday. However, it is rather late. We would like to continue tomorrow. If we could start at nine o' clock tomorrow so that at around 12 we are through. Thank you Mrs Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON: We close todays hearing. We will start tomorrow at nine. 1 P GXIDI MDANTSANE HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE 17 S S JAKO MDANTSANE HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE