hrvtrans TRUTH AND RECONCILIATION COMMISSION PRIVATE, HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATIONS, SUBMISSIONS QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS 1997-06-11 EAST LONDON 3 VUYANI MNGAZA EC0068/96ELN MDANTSANE https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=55255&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/hrvtrans/hrvel2/mngaza.htm CHAIRPERSON: We will ask Vuyani Mngaza to come forward. ADV SANDI: Number. CHAIRPERSON: Number ten in our list. Welcome Vuyani Mngaza. You will be sworn in by Reverend Xundu so that you can give your evidence under oath. VUYANI MNGAZA: (Duly sworn in, states). REV XUNDU: Thank you. CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sandi will lead you in evidence. ADV SANDI: Thank you Mr Chairperson. Mr Mngaza, your story goes back a long way, from 1960, actually 1963, being tortured, being ill-treated, you lost your business. We were in great debt and so forth. Let us start as thus, Mr Mngaza. You were a PAC member in 1963? MR MNGAZA: Yes Sir. ADV SANDI: Arrested because you were active in the PAC military wing? MR MNGAZA: Yes. ADV SANDI: Bhoqo, was it a PAC wing? MR MNGAZA: Yes. ADV SANDI: Let me hand over to you. Could you tell us your story without interruption. MR MNGAZA: Thank you Mr Chairperson. In our, I will start with the 1963 incident so that we can hurry. I was arrested on the eighth of April 1963, arrested in the morning at two am, having completed a task force function in the Transkei. We were all over Transkei, but the Security Branch officers were following us. We got to my business place. Some Comrades were left behind. ADV SANDI: Are you talking about your garage? MR MNGAZA: Yes, Pan African Motors at that time. My duty, especially in underground operations of the PAC, I had to co-ordinate our activities from Maseru to Cape Town. As I had a business they would send the Comrades to me. I would help them as much as I could in whatever they needed. We did a lot of work in my garage, making firearms, because as PAC members we were going to start a revolution in 1963. ADV SANDI: Without disturbing you, what kind of weapons are you talking about? MR MNGAZA: Pangas and weapons that were going to damage the Security Forces, because we were going to fight them. We wanted to liberate our people from the oppression of the Boers. We did our work. We had to co-ordinate sending weapons all over. ADV SANDI: You were arrested in that process? MR MNGAZA: Donald Card came at two am. He arrested me from home. Some, he missed some Comrades that were in my garage sleeping. ADV SANDI: Is this the time you ended up in a seven month detention in Cambridge? MR MNGAZA: Yes. ADV SANDI: In those seven months did you go before the Court of Law? MR MNGAZA: Yes, twice actually. They kept on postponing the case until we were granted bail. There were other Comrades that I had worked with. They divided us. I was in solitary confinement. My, the charge was then withdrawn. ADV SANDI: You were re-arrested. When was that? MR MNGAZA: After my case had been withdrawn I was led by Card to a 90 day detention. The Law had just been established. ADV SANDI: Are you saying that you were the first victims of the 90 day detention? MR MNGAZA: Yes, we were the first victims. ADV SANDI: What happened at the 90 day detention? Could you tell us about the form of torture you experienced. MR MNGAZA: After they had taken me from Fleet Street Charge Office I was taken to the Cambridge Police Station. On the way, it was Sergeant Card who was in the car. I do not remember the others, but I think Scheepers was there. They asked me to work with them. They offered me everything including a passport. I said I could not do that. Nobody was ever a policeman at home. I was not going to be a policeman. They put me in solitary confinement in Cambridge. ADV SANDI: How long were you detained Mr Mngaza? MR MNGAZA: I was in solitary confinement for a week. They would call me in during that week. They would interrogate me in connection with the work we were doing. They were not satisfied, because I was not divulging anything. They were not pleased at all. On the second week I was taken to the Charge Office, taken by Donald Card together with four other policemen, White policemen. There was a fifth one, a Black man, Chikila. I was interrogated on that day. Taken to another room in front, ahead of the interrogation office. They kicked me into the room. I was assaulted on that day. ADV SANDI: The doctor you saw whilst in detention, what was his name? MR MNGAZA: Before I was taken to the doctor, because this doctor I was taken to was from Queenstown Mental Hospital. After I had been beaten up I was charged at Fleet Street. They said that I had hit policemen. What is strange, the Magistrate never asked why my face was so swollen up. He just committed me to Dubangeni Mental Hospital in Queenstown. ADV SANDI: Had you made a request to the Magistrate that you want to be sent to Dubangeni? MR MNGAZA: No, they just said that the police said that because I was in solitary confinement I went insane and I fought the police. Therefore, they said that I was not mentally stable, I was deranged, this is why I was supposed to have fought the policemen. I was examined by a doctor, I was not examined by a doctor, I was just sent to Dubangeni Hospital for 28 days. It is there that I was examined by a doctor from the mental hospital. ADV SANDI: Who was the Magistrate presiding? MR MNGAZA: I did not know him even then, but I remember at the time, that should be available at, in the records. ADV SANDI: I would like to hear more about this Dubangeni business. You were sent to this hospital, a hospital for the mentally deranged, because you fought against the police? You were discharged from Dubangeni. Did you go to any legal representative? MR MNGAZA: Before long Dr Robbinson realised that I had been beaten up by the Boers. He said that he would not make me stay there, because I was clearly not mentally ill. I had just been beaten by the Boers. They said, he said that they should leave a security man, because they are not going to keep somebody who is not deranged. He wrote a report that I had been beaten up already, because he did not see any, could not detect any mental illness. My attorney, Kannemeyer from Grahamstown, wrote to the Security Police that I should be taken back to Stutterheim Prison for detention to complete my detention period. I was taken into a cell with a lot of lice. I spent two nights there. They took me from there back to Cambridge Police Station. ADV SANDI: Did they beat you up again? MR MNGAZA: No, what happened is they took me again to court and they withdrew the charges of assault. ADV SANDI: Did you take any steps claiming, because you had been ill-treated by the police? MR MNGAZA: Yes, after the 90 day detention. On the 19th day I was called and released. I laid a charge opening a civil case, having been harassed and assaulted by the security. Nothing came of this case, because they were handling it in any case. ADV SANDI: In 1964 you made a request for a passport to leave the country. Are you, were you talking about an exit permit? MR MNGAZA: Yes, I applied for a passport. They refused. I, when I wanted to find out what the reasons were for the denial they would not disclose them. ADV SANDI: Then in 1967 you were arrested for sabotage? MR MNGAZA: Yes, I was arrested again for sabotage, membership of the PAC, suppression of communism. There were a lot of charges laid, a long list it was. I was taken to the Supreme Court in Grahamstown. ADV SANDI: You were in detention for three months MR MNGAZA: Yes, solitary confinement in Grahamstown. ADV SANDI: When you appeared in court you were sentenced. What happened? MR MNGAZA: My case lasted a week. It was supposed to have lasted longer as there were many charges. However, it collapsed after the first week, because of the cross-examination made to the chief witnesses. It was evident that lies were told about me. ADV SANDI: Therefore you were innocent? MR MNGAZA: Yes, I was acquitted. ADV SANDI: After that, you left in 1967? MR MNGAZA: Yes, I had to get an exit permit, because I could not get a passport. Fortunately when we were in Grahamstown we smuggled documents to the United Nations and my name was in the list of South African cases that were on at the time. The Senegal Government said to the French Embassy in East London to give me a political asylum in Senegal as I was in the list for the oppressed in South Africa, the tortured. ADV SANDI: So you were in Senegal and other countries? MR MNGAZA: Yes, from there I went to Senegal where my organisation said I must open an office. From there I went to Nigeria, to Tanzania. From Tanzania I went to Europe. I stayed in London. I covered the whole of Europe, Iceland and Scandinavian countries working for the organisation. ADV SANDI: You came back in 1992 without a wife or children? MR MNGAZA: Yes, I came back alone. I am still alone. It was difficult to bring back my family, because I have no place to stay. It is difficult to bring back a family if you have no place to stay. ADV SANDI: You have a request about that? MR MNGAZA: If the Commission could help me with accommodation so that my family can come back. They cannot come back. Secondly, I do not know if I should proceed. ADV SANDI: Yes, you may proceed. Have you applied for a special pension? MR MNGAZA: That is what I was going to talk about. I have applied for a special pension last year, but there has been no response. If the Commission could help me and urge them along. It is my sister only to help me. I do not have transport either. Secondly, that the Commission could help me, I need to exhume my son's body who passed away in Botswana working for the organisation. He died in 1992. I need for him to be buried at home. Fourthly, I think something should be done for freedom fighters in terms of a heroes acre. Our people are all over the African Continent, some even in Europe. If they could be exhumed and buried so that people may be able to see their late family members who had fought for liberation. I think that would help people if the TRC could help as well as it is quite expensive. It is expensive to exhume peoples' bodies, but it should be done as a tribute to the fallen heroes. ADV SANDI: You lost a lot. You lost your business, you lost your family, your family is all over the world. I am going to, however, hand you over to the Chairperson now. Maybe he has questions for you. CHAIRPERSON: Thank you for your story. Mrs Crichton will read a statement from Mr Card. It is a long statement. I will ask her to hurry. There are a lot of people still to come. You may step down. Thank you. MS CRICHTON: Thank you Mr Chairperson. "I the undersigned, Donald John Card, do hereby state I am retired, 68 years of age and reside at 5 Avon Road, Woodleigh, East London. On the 22nd of May 1997 I was handed a document from the Truth and Reconciliation Commission in terms of Act number 34 of 1995 wherein it is stated that a certain Mr Vuyani Mngaza was going to testify before the Commission between the ninth and 12 of June 1997 and was going to implicate me. I do remember Mr Mngaza as the only garage owner in Duncan Village during the 1960's. In 1965 when a man, who was the messenger for the PAC high command in exile (Lesotho) and the remaining pockets of PAC members in South Africa was arrested, it became clear that Mr Mngaza played a leading role in the activities of the PAC in East London and, in fact, he was responsible for sending a woman to Lesotho to assist the PAC. This woman and Mr Mngaza were involved in the intended attack and killing of Whites throughout South Africa. I am not sure whether I or others under me actually arrested Mr Mngaza, but he was taken into custody and later charged. At no time was Mr Mngaza assaulted by me or anyone else in my presence while he was in custody, but on what occasion I did hear that Mr Mngaza had acted strangely and was taken to the doctor for mental observation. Mr Mngaza was later charged and appeared before the Supreme Court in Grahamstown before Judge Kannemeyer. Due to the fact that the court felt that there was insufficient evidence to corroborate the main State witness, Mr Mngaza was acquitted. At the trial Mr Mngaza swore under oath that he was not a member of the PAC and I know notice in Annexure EC68/96 that he was a founder member of the Border region of the PAC. That, of course, says very little for his integrity, but I suppose he will say that he told lies to stay out of prison. So, is he lying now for the sake of money. With regard to the allegations on Annexure 68/96, I will deal with them as follows. Number one, I did not know that there was a Border branch of the PAC in 1950. I believed that it was established after 1957. Number two, I had no dealings with the arrest of Mr Mngaza in 1963. In fact, I did not know that he had been arrested. Number three, I have no knowledge of Mr Mngaza's detention and release on the 11th of October 1963. Four, in 1963 I was not a member of the Security Police nor did I have dealings with Mr Mngaza then. Five, ...". I am on point number five of Mr Donald John Card's statement about Mr Vuyani Mngaza. "In 1963 I did work with Detective- Sergeant Scheepers, Detective-Constable Chikila, Constable Babba Gooysen and Detective-Constable Hans Mynhardt, but we had nothing to do with Mr Mngaza. Sixth, I do remember that Mr Mngaza was sent for mental observation, but I cannot remember for how long. I do remember that he was declared fit for trial so do not know whether he was pretending or not. Seven, I have no knowledge of a civil claim. Eight, the Attorney-General has nothing to do with civil claims and neither did the Security Police. These claims are dealt with between the claimants advocate, the registrar and the court. So I find Mr Mngaza's statement very difficult to understand. Nine, I have no knowledge of an application for a passport by Mr Mngaza. Ten, to the best of my knowledge, Mr Mngaza had left this country by 1967 and I do not know about these charges. 11, If my memory serves me correctly, our money system in 1967 was in rands and not in pounds. I also do not know of a further charge of sabotage in 1967 against Mr Mngaza. 12, Mr Mngaza was arrested in 1964 or 65 on a minor charge and was released on R500,00 bail, but when he was re-arrested on a more serious charge, bail was opposed and he was kept in custody in East London and transferred to Grahamstown for trial before the Supreme Court. 13, The trial before Judge Kannemeyer was in 1965 and not in 1967. 14, I do not know the cost of legal fees, but do know that individuals seldom pay for legal fees when a political organisation is involved. It is again strange that rands and not pounds are now quoted. 15, The sale of Pan African Motors took place sometime after Mr Mngaza was acquitted and it must have cost a considerable amount of money to go to Dakar with his whole family. 16, I did see letters written by Mr Mngaza from Senegal. 17, I know that the whole family left with him. 18, I did not know that Mr Mngaza had returned to South Africa. I would like to point out that the information supplied on the Annexure appears to be that of a confused person and honestly does not make sense to me and therefore it is very difficult to answer except to say that Mr Mngaza was not assaulted by me or anyone else in my presence nor was he badly treated. He did have to wait some time for his trial, but that was a matter for the courts and not the police. Furthermore, I gain the impression that what Mngaza is seeking is the R2 650,00 which he says he paid for legal costs. This appears to be a small amount of money for an attorney and an advocate's attendance at a Supreme Court hearing in Grahamstown. Mr Mngaza's stated under oath that he was not a PAC member, but it is now obvious that he is once again lying in order to substantiate his claims for costs. Signed Donald John Card.". Thank you Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON: Again, it is very sad that Mr Card is not here personally so that we can ask him questions according to his statement. It is also sad that he is, he made a judgement about the confusion of Mr Mngaza. In our eyes we see him as a perfectly normal person, not a confused person, but we will try and get in touch with Mr Card. Maybe in Section 29 hearing so that we can get clarity in what is written in his statement. He imputed bad motives to Mr Mngaza. We think that we have to close. The report we got concerning electricity is that this effected the whole Highway area. It will, this will continue and they hope that if the weather is clear tomorrow our proceedings are going to be normal. If it is not they are going to request a generator to help us. Tomorrow we have a women hearing looking at issues which involved women in detention. We have 14 people, were supposed to give their evidence today. We thought that tomorrow the women hearing will proceed as planned from half past nine. If we manage to finish in time we will continue with this hearing tomorrow, but if we have to go through to Friday we will do that and have our hearing up until 12 on Friday. All the people who are, who were supposed to testify today, we will meet with them tomorrow, but if we did not finish we will meet them on Friday. We have to listen to everybody, because this is our last hearing. We would like people to be patient with us. If we knew that there is this situation here in Mdantsane we would have brought our own electricity from Cape Town. It is said that you do not pay electricity here in Mdantsane. Thank you and we will come tomorrow at half past nine. 1 V MNGAZA MDANTSANE HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE