hrvtrans TRUTH AND RECONCILIATION COMMISSION PRIVATE, HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATIONS, SUBMISSIONS QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS 1997-06-13 EAST LONDON 5 MRS MSAWULI EC0214 MDANTSANE https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=55257&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/hrvtrans/hrvel2/msawuli.htm CHAIRPERSON: We will ask Mrs Msawuli to come forward. Pardon. MS MAYA: He is a man. CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mnyute okay. Mr Mnyute please come forward. Thank you. Welcome Mr Mnyute and Mrs Msawuli. I will start with you Mrs Msawuli to help you take an oath. Please stand up. MRS MSAWULI: (Duly sworn in, states). CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mrs Msawuli. MR MNYUTE: (Duly sworn in, states). CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Sir. I will now hand over to Mr Sandi to lead you with questions on behalf of the Commission. ADV SANDI: Thank you Mr Chairperson. Let us start with Mrs Msawuli. Mrs Msawuli, you are here to talk about Mr Msawuli who was shot in 1990. Is that correct? MRS MSAWULI: Yes, that is correct. ADV SANDI: Was Mr Msawuli your husband? MRS MSAWULI: Yes. ADV SANDI: What are his full names? MRS MSAWULI: Mtyanti Vusumzi Artwell Msawuli. ADV SANDI: Let me now hand over to you to tell us what happened on this particular day. MRS MSAWULI: I was at work. I was on night duty. There was, our niece was there, Sheila, my daughter and Mr Galelekile was also there. On the 29th of March 1990, it was on a Thursday. President Mandela was going to be in Bisho on the 31st in the stadium. I was on a night shit in Mount Cook Hospital. My husband was working for the Hector Foundation. I heard a one year, three months baby. During the day I looked after the baby. At night my husband was looking after the baby. I would give him a report about what had happened during the day. I went to work, my husband was not at home. I was worried, because my child was not well at that time. At about one in the morning I received a telephone call from the matron. They requested me to go to the office together with one person I was working with. We asked the security man to accompany us to the office. When we got to the office they said that Sheila was alone at home. The baby was sick, your husband was not at home. He attended a meeting. Pindile and Andile are here to take you home. They asked me whether I knew Pindile. I said, yes, Pindile was my neighbour. They asked whether I knew Andile. I thought that Andile was their niece. I said, yes, I do know Andile. We were taken to the car. I asked them why are you here. They said that they told my matron. At home the lights were on. I went through the kitchen door. I saw this child staying in bed. I asked where is my baby. My baby was lying down and we heard that, they told me that my husband was shot and he died. People said that my husband came back home at about nine. His friend brought him home, Monde Mkhunqwana. They were studying together social sciences. They use to go and study in Sandiswe School. He left my husband at home. My husband took off his jacket and his shoes. He was watching television. He heard a knock at the door. It was Andile together with another young man. I found out later on that that young man was the cadre. At about 20 past nine there was another knock at the door. My husband went to the kitchen. Our kitchen door had two doors. He asked who are you? This person said that I am Monks. This Monks is Monde Mkhunqwana. He then opened the door. There was a quarrel at the door. My husband saying that why are you selling me out? He then said that, Comrades, let us not fight, let us talk. There was a gunshot. The second one struck him and he fell down. Andile went to the bedroom. He took out a knife from his pocket, because he thought these were the police. He tried to hide under the bed. The other young man just stood in the dining-room. My one child was 13 years old at the time. My child saw a man wearing a balaclava and a black jacket. This man was shooting my husband while he was lying down. After that he left and the other one took a mat outside and they covered him with this mat. This young man told my child to go and close the door. My child then closed and locked the door. He phoned their grandfather, Duno Bamsouli. At that time he was in Pretoria. He then phoned the neighbours. This young man was still there. They did not see him leaving, leaving the house. After that the police came and they took him. They cleaned blood spots. When I arrived at home there was no blood. Everything was clean. There were no photographers. The following morning Monde Mkhunqwana came. We were in the bedroom at that time. He said that I was together with Saule the whole day and the person who knocked at the door identified himself as myself. I dropped him at about nine. When I was going back home at NU16 I heard gunshots and Monde Mkhunqwana was the one saying this. The police came in the morning saying that we must go to the police station. I made a statement. I thought that the people who killed my husband were the police. I said to them I suspect Sitilie Golo, because he was the one harassing us at home. ADV SANDI: Mrs Msawuli, was there anyone arrested by the police? MRS MSAWULI: Nobody was arrested. I went to the police now and again asking whether there was anybody arrested. They said no, but they said that they will try and find this person. Again in 1994 I wrote a letter to the Minister of Justice telling him about this incident. He asked me where this happened and I told him. I did not get a reply after that. Again last year in April I went to the Truth Commission to give out my statement. I said that because he was working for the ANC the ANC people will help me to find the perpetrator. Again I visited the investigators of the Truth Commission saying that I had information. My daughter-in-law had information. Patricia Msawuli said that Andile is willing to come forward to tell people in public who did this. There were four people and he named, mentioned them by their names. Again I said that there were rumours about a certain person who shot at home. He was a cadre and I told them to try and investigate this person so that we can find out the truth. ADV SANDI: Mrs Msawuli, how old is Sheila? MRS MSAWULI: Sheila was born in 1975. She was 13 years old at the time. ADV SANDI: She was the one present during this incident? MRS MSAWULI: Yes. ADV SANDI: In your statement you stated that you would like this issue to be investigated? MRS MSAWULI: Yes. ADV SANDI: Do you have any other requests except this one? MRS MSAWULI: My request is that my husband was the breadwinner. He was also supporting the community at large. He would take children to school and he was involved in community sport. I have two young children and I am raising them alone. It is very difficult to be a single parent. I would like the four men who did this to come forward and I would like the Truth Commission to help me regarding this matter so that these people can come forward and tell us the truth, why they killed my husband. Maybe I will forgive them. ADV SANDI: Thank you Mrs Msawuli. Maybe you will be asked questions. I will hand over to the Chairperson. Thank you. Mr Mnyute, you also have a complaint in connection to a 1990 incident. Is that so? MR MNYUTE: Yes. ADV SANDI: You say that there were pamphlets about you. What were they stating and what was the source? MR MNYUTE: They gave me a new name that I am an informer. These pamphlets were distributed, because we were oppressed by the White man and our own people from the homelands. I was one of the people who made a way that, of people to be outspoken especially for the youth together with my colleague who is late. We started the East London Youth Congress. We had not gone far, but because they realised that I was not well educated we were being undermined, demeaned. The youth opened another organisation. This youth organisation was in conflict with our own organisation. The East London Youth Congress started fighting with the other youth organisation. Their battle ended up at my own house. I have children, but fortunately at home I had members of the East London Youth Congress. The other group came together with other girls. If it was only the ANC, I am not scared, I could name them, but we are mixed and you are going to capitalise on that. I am not going to divulge the names, but what I wanted to say that since I was released from Robben Island I could not be employed, therefore, I employed myself and I told people and I told people about the ANC. ADV SANDI: Excuse me Sir. Could you go back to the pamphlets. You were saying that these pamphlets referred to you as an informer? MR MNYUTE: Yes. ADV SANDI: Did people believe that? MR MNYUTE: In politics, you see, those who are against you they go and spread a bad spirit about you. Those who are working with you listen. This issue about being an informer, you see, I had combis. They said that I am using these mini-busses so that the other youth group can fight, can be fought with the aid of these mini-busses. ADV SANDI: When the other group came to your house were your cars damaged or perhaps your furniture? MR MNYUTE: No, it was not on that day. After a while Comrade Msawuli and Sitho and other Comrades were called to Lusaka. They came back. After they came back I think that there was a conclusion that something should be done about informers. ADV SANDI: We have to focus on the matter of your house being bombed. Perhaps not go into other details. MR MNYUTE: When I came back from Lusaka, apparently I had been called to Lusaka as well. I said I knew nothing about it. The day Comrade Msawuli was beaten up I was also beaten up on that very same day. I was beaten up at 12 midnight. ADV SANDI: Were the perpetrators found? MR MNYUTE: No, because the Ciskeian Police together with the perpetrators worked together, they were in cahoots. They were scared of me however. They did not know what I was going to do. Secondly, after they had bombed my house what saved me was my mini-busses were parked almost against my wall. The grenades they threw into the lounge my wife leapt and I jumped over her, right over her so that she would not be injured. However, she got greatly injured. Then they threw yet another one around the dining room. That hit the wall and went back to the cars. It damaged the cars. My wife was injured. ADV SANDI: Were there other people who were injured in the house except for your wife? MR MNYUTE: I was also injured. The children, fortunately, were not injured. It is just my wife and I who got hurt. ADV SANDI: Did you go to hospital to get some form of treatment together with your wife? MR MNYUTE: After we had taken my wife to hospital she was admitted for six months. I was only in hospital for two weeks. I do not, I thought only of revenge. I was thinking how I am going to organise my own boys to fight. ADV SANDI: Where was your wife? MR MNYUTE: She was in hospital at that time. ADV SANDI: Did she heal totally? MR MNYUTE: Yes, she is in the Transkei. She is a soldier. ADV SANDI: You would like us to investigate this matter? MR MNYUTE: It has been a while, asking for the truth, wanting this matter to be investigated. I was also saying that those people who said that I was an informer must also come forward. They must come and say who I sold out. They must be investigated, they must come. The ANC must try to pay for the damages. My children I cannot look after them well. My one child is at university. Mandela himself must come and himself must investigate this matter. I was working underground as well. I will give him names. ADV SANDI: You also requested that people like Vusumzi Artwell, Bawule and Mr Msawuli their matters be investigated as well? MR MNYUTE: As a matter of fact the ANC should have looked at these matters a long time ago, but because of the respect and discipline of our organisation we thought we should wait and see what the ANC would do, because Msawuli and I were working together also Sitho. We kept on thinking that the perpetrators would be found, the ANC would find out who they are, but that is not how things go. The ANC itself, in my perception, has been infiltrated a lot by the enemy. ADV SANDI: Let us not get into that Sir. I trust that that is all you have to say. If my colleagues have questions they will ask. Thank you. CHAIRPERSON: We thank you both. We remember the time of folly when our people were fighting against each other. It was painful. I think it is true when you say that truly the organisation should handle this matter. The ANC that is. People died. The community should have gotten together, walked hand-in-hand for the liberation of the struggle. It makes me angry really, because it is painful to see our own people fighting against each other. Msawuli was a brave man. This should not have happened to him. Thank you. Mrs Msawuli, you cannot mention peoples' names, unfortunately, in the hearing. These people should be given a notice 21 days before the hearing. However, you can go to our investigators, give them the names and we will investigate the matter further. Thank you. You may step down. 1 MRS MSAWULI MDANTSANE HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE