hrvtrans HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATIONS, SUBMISSIONS QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS 1996-09-05 NELSPRUIT 4 NOMASONTO BETTIE MTSHALI 0961 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=55294&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/hrvtrans/hrvnel/mtshali.htm CHAIRPERSON We welcome you and I will ask you to give your testimony freely. So that all the people inside this hall can hear you very well. I will ask one of the Commissioners to help you with the oath. MR MALAN Would you please stand to take the oath. NOMASONTO BETTIE MTSHALI (Duly sworn, states). MR MALAN Thank you very much, you may be seated. CHAIRPERSON I will ask one of the Commissioners to help you so that he/she helps you to give your testimony. Commissioner Sooka will help you. MS Y SOOKA Mamma Mtshali, can you hear me? MS MTSHALI Yes, I do. MS Y SOOKA Before you begin tell us about the disappearance of your son, I think you would appreciate if you could just tell us a little bit about him, where he worked, what he was doing at the time of his death and whether at the time of his disappearance, and whether he was involved in any political activity. MS MTSHALI My son disappeared in 1987. He was working at Umbogintwini. His name was David Mtshali. MS Y SOOKA Pull that slightly closer and if you could raise your voice a little bit. MS MTSHALI My son was working at Umbogintwini magistrate. He was working with Mr Mpanga. One day Mr Mpanga - it was in NELSPRUIT HEARING TRC/MPUMULANGA 2 MS N B MTSHALI November - we were not at home, we were at work. I left with my son. When we came home we could not find him. When we asked Mr Mpanga said the magistrate sent them to Natal. When Mr Mpanga came back from Natal he said they took someone there as well. When he came on Monday he came along, my son was not with him. When we asked Mr Mpanga where was my son, Mpanga said when they were at Germiston my son stood up and said he was going back home. Mr Mpanga said my son went and caught a train. I asked him was he drunk or what. Mr Mpanga said no. When he came back home Mr Mpanga just gave us my son's ID and my son's travelling bag. We went to the police station together with Mr Mpanga. We went and saw Mr Smuts. We told them the whole story. Mr Smuts said no, Mr Mpanga you must tell us where the boys is, you can't bring us his ID and his bag. They said this story we need to tell the Commissioner. My husband and myself went to Umbogintwini magistrate. We told them that you took ur child without our permission and now our child is not coming back home. He said no, your child is happy in that area there, he will come back. You go back home and stay there. We were puzzled about that. Because we expected the Commissioner to ask Mr Mpanga more about my son's disappearance. He told us we must go back and stay. We went back home. His father could not relax. He kept on going up and down to mortuaries, hospitals, he went everywhere. He spent a lot of time fetching for my son. He went back home. We went back to the Umbogintwini magistrate, the Commissioner. We told them that we can't find our son. NELSPRUIT HEARING TRC/MPUMULANGA 3 MS N B MTSHALI MS Y SOOKA Thank you, Mamma. I am going to ask you a few questions. Are you okay, can we carry on? MS MTSHALI Yes, you can ask me. MS Y SOOKA Would you like to give her some water, please. Mamma, I am just going to ask you a few questions to make sure that we get the story down properly. What was your son employed as at the magistrate's court? MS MTSHALI He was an admin officer. MS Y SOOKA Was Mr Mpanga an admin officer as well? MS MTSHALI Yes, he was. MS Y SOOKA Was your son also a comrade? MS MTSHALI Yes, he was a comrade. MS Y SOOKA Where he was employed did they know that? MS MTSHALI Yes, they do know that, because he was working there with the magistrate. MS Y SOOKA Do you know what the name of the magistrate was who was in charge? MS MTSHALI No, it was a white man. MS Y SOOKA What did Mr Mpanga say that he and your son was supposed to go and do in KwaZulu/Natal? MS MTSHALI The magistrate asked them to take someone to KwaZulu/Natal. I don't know why and why they had taken that person. Mpanga only came back. MS Y SOOKA Were they going to travel by train to KwaZulu/Natal? MS MTSHALI I think so, because Mpanga also brought a train ticket and also brought his ID. MS Y SOOKA Mamma, how old was your son at the time when this happened? MS MTSHALI He was born in 1960. NELSPRUIT HEARING TRC/MPUMULANGA 4 MS N B MTSHALI MS Y SOOKA What do you think happened to your son? MS MTSHALI I think they killed him. MS Y SOOKA Why do you think that? MS MTSHALI That's all I can come up with when I think. MS Y SOOKA Were there any rumours, did you not talk to any of your son's friends, was nobody ever able to give you any kind of explanation of something they might have heard? MS MTSHALI I can't take rumours because rumours are leading to the magistrate and the magistrate was supposed to take over this investigation, but the magistrate could not do anything. MS Y SOOKA Did you go back another time to the magistrate after your son had not come back after a month, did you visit him again? MS MTSHALI Yes, I went back and I told the magistrate that my son has died. He asked me why; I said to him I can see that, I know. He said to me no, he will come back. MS Y SOOKA Is this magistrate still around this area? MS MTSHALI I can't tell that really, because I just stopped looking for my son. Because also, my husband got sick and he could not do it any more. MS Y SOOKA Do you know if Mr Mpanga is still around? MS MTSHALI Mr Mpanga is my neighbour. MS Y SOOKA Thank you, Mamma. CHAIRPERSON We thank you very much. I will give other Commisioners a chance to ask you questions, if they do have questions to ask you. These questions will help you to give your testimony. Wynand Malan will ask you now. MR MALAN Mamma Mtshali, how long was your son working at the magistrate's court when he disappeared? MS MTSHALI I can't tell how many years. NELSPRUIT HEARING TRC/MPUMULANGA 5 MS N B MTSHALI MR MALAN I understand that from your response, that he did in fact work at least for some years there, before he disappeared. MS MTSHALI Yes, he worked for a long time, but I can't tell the years. MR MALAN In November 1989 - when you gave evidence this morning, at least the translation was saying that this happened in 1987. Was it indeed 1989? Can you remember the year? MS MTSHALI This happened in 1987, 1989. 1989, if I can remember very well. MR MALAN Did you ever, after your son disappeared, got any payments from the magistrate for pension or for salary that was due to your son? MS MTSHALI No, I didn't receive anything. MR MALAN Did they not approach you in order to try and find out where he was so that if they could effect payment of salaries due to him? MS MTSHALI No one came, except them saying that my son will come back, I must go home and relax. MR MALAN Just a last question from my side. Mr Mpanga, when he came back and when he told you that your son disappeared at Germiston station, he gave you this bag in which you said was the ID and a train ticket and in your statement you also said tablets. Can you tell us something about these tablets? MS MTSHALI Yes, there were also tablets. I suspect they were headache tablets. MR MALAN He wasn't on medication? MS MTSHALI No, all I can say is that maybe he needed the pain-killers when he was on the way. NELSPRUIT HEARING TRC/MPUMULANGA 6 MS N B MTSHALI MR MALAN: Do you know what these tablets were, the name of the tablets? MS MTSHALI No, I can't tell the name, except that they were white tablets. They looked like headache tablets to me. MR MALAN Thank you very much. I have no further questions. MR LEWIN Just two questions, if I may, Mamma. One is the return of Mr Mpanga. Did he explain at all why he was bringing back the ID card and the travelling bag? MS MTSHALI He did explain. He said my son said to him take these, I will take a train back home. When I asked him when he said so, was he sick or what. So he said no, he wasn't sick. He didn't explain any more, except for telling me that my son wanted to come back home by train. MR LEWIN Why do you think that your son gave his ID card to Mpanga? MS MTSHALI These things were brought to me by Mr Mpanga. He said to me my son gave it to him. I am still asking myself why would my son give Mr Mpanga his bag, his ID, and where was he going to, because they left here - the three of them left here, they were supposed to come back. MR LEWIN And just, what might be a silly question. You mentioned that he caught a goods train back from Germiston. MS MTSHALI When they were waiting for a train at the station, Mpanga said my son said he was going to take this goods train and they were waiting for a train but my son decided to take a goods train back home. I told Mr Mpanga when he was telling me this, what you are telling me it really doesn't make any sense at all. He kept quiet. When NELSPRUIT HEARING TRC/MPUMULANGA 7 MS N B MTSHALI I took him to the police station that we can make a statement, he kept quiet even there. MR LEWIN Thank you. CHAIRPERSON I would ask you a few questions so that you can help us in clarifying your testimony. In your statement it says that your son disappeared and he was one of the members of the African National Congress, and his duty was to put together youth. At that time what organisation was he belonging to, because at that time the ANC was banned. MS MTSHALI No, I did say that he was a member of the ANC. He was an activist. CHAIRPERSON Another thing that I would like you to verify, even though some of my colleagues have asked you. When you wrote the statement did you mention this to Mr Mpanga, that Mr Mpanga I am going to the Truth Commission to put forward my statement? MS MTSHALI No, I did not tell Mr Mpanga. No, I didn't tell him. CHAIRPERSON As you see, Mr Mpanga can try and help us because he also has some information. MS MTSHALI I think he will. CHAIRPERSON We thank you very much. We have tried to ask you questions, even though we can see it is not a nice story to tell, but this is our duty. We need to find this information. If we really want to help you, this is the only way we can help you by asking you questions so that we have answers, and it will make our job easier. We also feel for you and we can see the pain and knowing that you once had a child and now you don't have a child and you don't know where your child is. We would also like to say to you we admire you for your strength, being able to survive after NELSPRUIT HEARING TRC/MPUMULANGA 8 MS N B MTSHALI this tragedy. We will try and help you so that you find out the truth about your son. Thank you very much. NELSPRUIT HEARING TRC/MPUMULANGA