hrvtrans HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATIONS, SUBMISSIONS QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS 1996-06-27 PORT ELIZABETH 2 AMANDA E. MAGWACA https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=55318&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/hrvtrans/hrvpe2/magwaca.htm ACTING CHAIRMAN: We are going to call upon Amanda Eunice Magwaca together with Wonga Billie, they should come to the stand please. Good afternoon to you Mrs Magwaca and to you Mr Billie. I'll ask Reverend Xundu to swear you in so that you can start with your statement. REV XUNDU Thank you Chairperson. I welcome you before I request you to take the oath, thank you for your contribution and the contribution of your children who fell in the struggle for liberation and whose death were not in vain. Can you stand up please. AMANDA EUNICE MAGWACA & WONGA BILLIE (sworn states) REV XUNDU I'll hand over to you Chairperson. CHAIRMAN Thank you, thank you Reverend Xundu. It is usually our procedure, we will request Ntsiki Sandi to help you and guide you in your statement. MR SANDI Mrs Magwaca, your statement is about your husband Vukile Magwaca, he was a member of the street committee at Kwazakele township in 1986. MRS MAGWACA Yes, he was a member of the area street committee. MR SANDI Was there a state of emergency at that time? MRS MAGWACA Yes, yes, yes, there was. MR SANDI You said in your statement on the 19th of June in PORT ELIZABETH HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE 2 AE MAGWACA 1986 Security Police came, three Security Policemen and one Black Policeman came to your house, who was there when they came? MRS MAGWACA The first thing, I just want to apologise because some of the things I haven't included in that statement, they are just coming to mind now. On the evening of Wednesday, at one o'clock my husband was not sleeping at the house because he was afraid of being arrest. On that particular night he was at home and then at one o'clock in the morning we heard a car stopping outside and we woke up. He went to the window and peeped and I also peeped. Then he asked whose car is this and then I said I don't know because it is a state of emergency, so we just ignored it, but the car didn't stop directly in front of our gate, diagonally opposite and then we went to sleep again and then on Thursday, the following morning and then about at the same time on Thursday now, and I was alone on that particular night, I heard a kombi stopping outside and then I looked through the window and found that it was the same kombi. And I couldn't sleep, I was scared, I was just laying on my bed because my kids were still very small, my three kids were still very small. The older one was not at home, he was serving a prison sentence in Mntansane and I was scared and sleepless. About 15 minutes later after hearing this I heard a knock on my door and the doors were being banged, kicked and the windows and then my light was not off, so I braised it and then the Boers were shouting at me to open and then I went to open and then my third child and the two younger PORT ELIZABETH HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE 3 AE MAGWACA ones and a friend of his from the street, were sleeping in the other room and these police came in together with this Black policeman. And when they came in this first Boer asked where is Lamla, where is Popi and we want Lamla, we want Popi and Lamla because your child is very good at making petrol bombs. I said I didn't know where they were, because they were not at home. And the Black policeman said how could I say I didn't know, I said no, they don't tell me when they go, they never tell me when they go. And then they pushed me around and pushed me and I would fall and get up and then they would ask me to dress up. They said I will have to tell them where my husband was, I told them I didn't know. And then they said Lamla is a member of a political organisation as a comrade, I must tell them. They were turning everything upside down and took away our photo's next to the phone and some of them, I still had a phone, which was also taken away at that same time. They took some photographs and they were searching and they took an album. Every picture of my husband was taken away and they asked me to dress. I didn't want to put on my clothes, but I was getting cold and my body was aching because they were throwing me down. MR SANDI And eventually did they take you? MRS MAGWACA Yes, they did take me. They forced me to put on my clothes because of this policeman and these White ones. This policeman dragged me forcefully and then I put on my clothes. The reason I didn't want to leave is that I PORT ELIZABETH HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE 4 AE MAGWACA was worried about the kids, the young kids that I had to leave behind. MR SANDI So where did they take you to? MRS MAGWACA They took me in their vehicle, in the van which I found parked outside when I got out. I got into this van, there was a gentleman, one gentleman who said to me there were other cars lining the street, he said, this man said, you know they have been wanting to get you because they want this Popi and Lamla so we went and a number of people were taken, collected and they were going up and down with me. They were taking people in the community, in the street until they filled the van. Then they came back to our street and then they took another lady and the van was full and then it went to drop its passengers at Algoa. MR SANDI Did they return you to your place? MRS MAGWACA Yes, in the morning, in the morning, towards six o'clock, between five and six and then they stopped at this lady in front of us and then they stopped closer to my house in the street. MR SANDI Who did you find at home when you returned? MRS MAGWACA It is the young kids that I left behind that I found. When I entered the gate I met my husband at the gate and he asked me where I was from. I said I have been taken away by the Boers and they are looking for you and Lamla and I didn't sleep as you can see. MR SANDI Who was he with at the time you met him at the gate? MRS MAGWACA He was by himself. We met at the gate, on the lawn there, he was alone, he was just coming. MR SANDI Didn't you say there were four people who were PORT ELIZABETH HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE 5 AE MAGWACA with him, Temakozi and Tando Mbambani? MRS MAGWACA No, they had not yet arrived at the time. It is just my husband and I and then we entered and then we sat and I had a neighbour with whom I was going to work, another lady. Whilst we were inside the house, these four comrades came in and they talked and chatted with my husband and I was saying to my husband he should go and come back later to make porridge for himself, but they delayed. They continued with their conversation and then at about quarter to seven I heard a knock at the front door, then we looked at one another and I went to open. As I opened these Boers came in together with this Black policeman who was in uniform. MR SANDI Who was this Black policeman? MRS MAGWACA I don't know sir. I really don't know, but the comrades here they know him. They know the policeman who arrested. MR SANDI Were they all taken together with Mr Billie, next to you? MRS MAGWACA Yes, that is so. MR SANDI Did you go to a lawyer for assistance or advice about the arrest of your husband? MRS MAGWACA I went to Mr Ganuno to tell him about what happened to my husband and he did enter into some correspondence with the police and the Black Sash. They were was a response to the fact that my husband ran away, he escaped. MR SANDI Did you see him after being arrested, your husband? MRS MAGWACA No, I didn't, no I didn't see him after he was arrested. We tried, but all in vain and the lawyers PORT ELIZABETH HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE 6 AE MAGWACA tried to write letters, but they were told that he skipped the country. His younger brother tried also, but now and again he would report to me where he went to search and it was not successful anywhere. MR SANDI And Mr Wonga Billie next to you, was he one of those who were arrested with your husband? Do you think his statement we will touch on that? MRS MAGWACA Yes I think it will because they were together. Yes, it will because they were together. MR SANDI If I understood you well, quite clearly amongst your request to the Commission, your request is that they should investigate the death or disappearance of your husband. Is there any other request to the community? MRS MAGWACA My request to the Commission I am very unhappy, I am not satisfied at all. MR SANDI Take your time. Take your time, let me know when you are ready to continue, but on the whole we have covered everything. I just wanted to ask what did the - did the authorities say your husband ran away when he was in Bethelsdorp? MRS MAGWACA Yes, yes, that's what they said. MR SANDI Is that all you want to say before I go on to Mr Billie? Is that all? MRS MAGWACA My wish Commissioner I have kids who cannot do anything for themselves, they were very small still attending school and my kids, all my three kids, my older kids they ended up being delinquents because they lost their father, they couldn't attend school, they couldn't continue with their schooling because the person who was encouraging them and guiding them, they dropped out of school and then I experienced poverty because I depended on my husband and PORT ELIZABETH HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE 7 AE MAGWACA then I became poor and even my health has been affected. I still feel very bitter because I never had the chance to give my husband a funeral, so I would like to get his bones, what they did to him and where did they put him, I just want that information. Even if I could just only get the remains, I am not satisfied at all. I am not happy. Even though I accepted my fate, but I am still unhappy because I am thinking of the kids who are always asking about their father. MR SANDI Thank you Mrs Magwaca. Mr Billie, briefly ... MRS MAGWACA Excuse me Commissioner, just one point, the other request that I would like to make is that the old regime, De Klerk's Government I want them to support me until I die. Support me and my kids because my husband was supporting me, I don't know what they did to him, he never came back from prison. He disappeared in their hands, now I want them to support me and my kids, that is my wish. MR SANDI Thank you. Mr Billie, you were together with Mr Magwaca, can you just tell us briefly. MR BILLIE Thank you very much Commissioner. I am happy to get the opportunity to give this statement. In 1986, it was June, it was in 19.., Popi Magwaca came to my house, it was myself and Thando and Tutuzela Shlinga, Tutuzela Shlinga and Thando and Themboqozi Mbambani. When he came, of course at the time we knew that the police were looking for him, when he came, it was about eleven at night and we said to him, he shouldn't go home, we should just put up at my place together and that's what happened. We all put up at my place, all of us. Towards five in the morning, if I remember correctly, he got up. Popi PORT ELIZABETH HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE 8 W BILLIE Magwaca got up and he said he was going home just to check what the situation was at home. Indeed, Magwaca went, Popi Magwaca went, he said he was not going to stay, he was going to come back very soon, he wouldn't take long. He would come and tell us what was going on. Indeed we waited for him. At about six Sipho Futwa came and said to us you know whilst you guys are sitting here, people are being arrested outside by the Boers. So I advise you to see what you can do, but don't stay here. And so he left because he was rushing to work, because he was working at the time. We decided quite quickly that this, we wondered why this man was taking so long to return, because he had promised to come back quickly and suddenly thereafter we left to check what was happening as he said he was just going to check on the situation. Indeed we found him at his place, he was drinking a cup of tea and his wife, next to me here, was there. It was not even ten minutes after we came, there was a knock on the front door and whilst we were just thinking about the knock, we rushed to the kitchen. MR SANDI Was the knock from the police? MR BILLIE Yes, it was the police because Popi Magwaca, when he opened the door, the kitchen door and then we found someone pointing a gun at him, at his chest and they said, where is Popi Magwaca and he said no, Popi is not here, he has just left. They said no, you are laying, you are Popi. And this policeman, the Black policeman, the Xhosa policeman, there was White one, a Boer, they came in, they shepherded us to PORT ELIZABETH HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE 9 W BILLIE the front and we went outside. MR SANDI Were there any police that you knew amongst this? MR BILLIE No. No, I didn't know any of them. MR SANDI Is there so Sergeant that you've mentioned, the Black Sergeant that was mentioned in your statement, to say that he was there? MR BILLIE I am coming to that point. I am coming to that point. MR SANDI ; And so you were taken, where were you taken to? MR BILLIE We were taken and there were 20 more other people, we were put into the van and then they took us away and there was another van following us, they took us to Algoa, Algoa police station. MR SANDI What did they say was the reason for your arrest? MR BILLIE No we only heard when we got arrested that the reason for our arrest was arson, was burning of houses. MR SANDI You remained at Algoa Parks police station until when and what happened thereafter? MR BILLIE When we got to Algoa we found a lot of other people who had already been arrested from our area. And then the five of us were taken into the yard at Algoa Park and we were asked to face a big window. They just pulled the curtain off and there was a policeman who just looked at us and said, it is them, it is them. MR SANDI Now all this time up to this point was Mr Magwaca still with you? MR BILLIE Yes, yes, we were still with him. MR SANDI So how did you part with him at the police station? MR BILLIE When these men identified us as, we were taken into another group and our names were taken to the PORT ELIZABETH HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE 10 W BILLIE register and thereafter, about in the afternoon, we were taken in the police vehicles and we were taken to Bethelsdorp, Bethelsdorp police station. MR SANDI When you say we, do you mean Mr Magwaca is also there? MR BILLIE All of us together with the group that we found there. And then we were taken to Bethelsdorp police station. MR SANDI Now did you say when you got to the police station at Bethelsdorp, Mr Magwaca was taken away from you? MR BILLIE (tape starts) ... the youth were put next door to the one that the men were put in. This was now Friday, it was the 20th of June. MR SANDI Now you say in your statement between the 23rd and the 24th of June, between three and four, Mr Magwaca was taken from his cell. Which cell was this one, was it the one in which you also were in or was it another one where he was alone? MR BILLIE Popi Magwaca, some policemen came and when they came they made the mistake of coming to a cell in which we were while Mr Magwaca was not there. They said they were looking for him, then we told them he was in the cell next door. Indeed they went to that cell and then we heard the sound of the keys and that probably was the time when they took him away. From that time we had never met Popi Magwaca up to now. MR SANDI: Which one of the policemen had the keys at the police station? MR BILLIE The police who was keeping the keys I didn't see. I didn't see him, because he didn't appear. The ones who appeared are those who had come to fetch him. PORT ELIZABETH HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE 11 W BILLIE MR SANDI Do you remember mentioning a policeman who had keys to your cell? MR BILLIE I know the police who came to fetch Magwaca. MR SANDI In your statement you mentioned Constable Arendse. Do you remember saying that in your statement? MR BILLIE Indeed dear Commissioner, I am sorry that there are some witnesses who should be here who I don't see now. I am sure they are here. The person who knows the police who was having keys is Themboqozi Mbambani. MR SANDI Is that all you want to say Mr Billie? MR BILLIE Yes, that is all I want to say, that is all I want to say, however, the police who came to fetch him, I have not yet mentioned their names because I know them. MR SANDI Can you do that? MR BILLIE One was Van Rooyen, there was Nieuwoudt, there was Faku. MR SANDI From which cell, is this a different cell? MR BILLIE They started at our cell, that's the mistake they made. Jam was there and another gentleman who was called Bele. MR SANDI And who of them talked to you, did they come in one by one or did they come in as a group? MR BILLIE They didn't enter the cell, they actually stood outside the door and Van Rooyen is the one who talked. MR SANDI What did he say, did he say he wanted Mr Magwaca? MR BILLIE He said where is Popi, I am looking for Popi. MR SANDI What time was it? MR BILLIE I think it was about two, it was about two o'clock if I am not mistaken. MR SANDI Now when it is being alleged that Mr Magwaca ran away from the police station, does that surprise you that PORT ELIZABETH HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE 12 W BILLIE they don't even know where he ran to. MR BILLIE Yes, that surprises me because after they had taken Popi away, they, after some time came back. And then they shouted at Lamla, they said where is Lamla Magwaca and he responded and said, here am I and they came and they said Lamla, your father is a cheat, he ran away and Lamla Magwaca, you can't come and tell me that because he was first by you, you will know where he is. MR SANDI Is that all you want to say before I hand you over back to the Chairperson? MR BILLIE Yes, for now that is all that I would like to say. MR SANDI Thank you. ACTING CHAIRPERSON Mrs Magwaca, you are one of many many women here in South Africa who have the problem of being widows who never had the opportunity to give funeral rights to their husbands. They don't even know where they ended up. You are one of those people who have that problem. We will try the best the Commission can, using some aspects of Mr Billie's statement and piece them together and see whether we can get any direction that will bring us close to the truth. Thank you. MRS MAGWACA Can I just have one minute Honourable Commissioner, there is another youngster who gave a statement. He knows the policeman who took my husband away and those comrades were arrested with him. Those who were with him in the cell, they know. Even this second youngster who made a statement Themboqozi Mbambani, he knows this policeman. That's all. PORT ELIZABETH HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE 13 ACTING CHAIRMAN Thank you, we will follow that one up as well.