hrvtrans HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATION HEARINGS 1996-10-08 KAROO 2 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=55341&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/hrvtrans/karoo/ct00513.htm CASE NO: CT/00513 VICTIM: SOPHIE BUTELE VIOLATION: KILLING TESTIMONY FROM: ELSIE JANTJIE [mother] NELSON JANTJIE [brother] MS BURTON We move on to our next case now and we ask to come to the stage Elsie Jantjies and Nelson Sinxoshe Jantjie. Welcome and good afternoon - can you hear me well with the earphones. UNKNOWN MS BURTON Ms Jantjie would you please stand to take the oath. ELSIE JANTJIE Duly sworn states MS BURTON Mr Jantjie please would you stand. NELSON SINXHOSE JANTJIE Duly sworn states MS BURTON Ms Seroke is going to help you in telling us the story of what happened to yourselves and your family. MS SEROKE MS JANTJIE Yes I am. MS SEROKE MS JANTJIE What happened before that I would not know, because when she got shot I was not at home, she got home on a Friday from Johannesburg, she was shot on a Saturday. I was not at home during that time, a certain lady called me to come back home. She called me to see my child as she was lying on the street, [indistinct] called me, we ran to the street, my child was strewn on the ground. When we got there, we endeavoured to lift her up she could not even speak. We tried to lift her up, someone said we must leave her alone until the police come. We left her there - we crossed the road and sat on the pavement waiting for the police. The police did not come, she was just strewn on the ground. A certain man walked passed us towards my daughter, I then said that he must leave her, because the police must see her first, he said there is no police that is going to come. He said he did not see the police on the way. This man took my daughter, we helped to lift her up to put her in the car. I was in the car together with this man - we drove my daughter to the police station, that is only - it is only then that the police emanated. My daughter was bleeding all over especially on the forehead, the police uncovered my daughter and they - but they covered her up yet again. They said that we must take her to the doctor, we drove her to the doctor - it took time for the doctor to come to the car. That doctor uncovered my daughter - he then said an ambulance must be called to take her to De Aar. This man said he cannot drive to De Aar because he does not have enough petrol to go to De Aar. We said in the car for a while - my daughter was just [indistinct] in pain, she could not speak. An ambulance arrived, we took her from the car to the ambulance as we were going to drive with her to De Aar. We went with her to De Aar it was on a Saturday afternoon. When we got to De Aar she - we took her inside the nurses said there is no doctor we waited for the doctor, eventually the doctor came he then asked why they left to bleed on her own. The doctor then attended to my daughter, bandaged her around the head - I was there watching all this. Dr Muller then said we must undress my daughter so that the wounds on her body can be attended to properly. As we were busy undressing her a bullet fell off her underwear. The nurses picked up the bullet, saying this is the evidence that your daughter has been shot. She was not properly attended too at De Aar - they just told us to take her to Kimberley, we then drove her to Kimberley, she had four wounds in her body one at the centre of her chest, beneath her breasts, the other on her buttocks, the biggest however was on her forehead. The others we say whilst we were undressing her as she was bleeding, we took her to Kimberley. When we got to Kimberley we stayed there until late, they tried to examine her but they did not give her any treatment. They then said they are waiting for specialist to attend to her, I left late at night on Saturday - they still had not given her treatment. We rode in the ambulance back to De Aar, because we did not have transport. My daughter was taken back to De Aar, this now was early hours of the morning. I do not have transport from De Aar, I struggled trying to phone home, trying to phone my son to come and fetch me. My son then asked if the nurses could look after me and take me in until the next day when I came to fetch her, because the son did not have money for petrol. MS SEROKE MS JANTJIE There is something else that happened before my daughter got shot - I just found her strewn on the ground. MS SEROKE Were there any eye witnesses or people who told you what happened prior to her shooting? MS JANTJIE Well people did utter statements whilst I was in jail and afterwards. It is only afterwards whilst I was in detention that anyone said something. MS SEROKE MS JANTJIE They said that it was [indistinct] who beat her on the forehead with a walking stick. I was not there when she was shot - I found her strewn on the ground. MS SEROKE You do not know the reason why she was attacked? MS JANTJIE I do not know, I do not know what she had done. MS SEROKE MS JANTJIE No-one gave me the time of day, no-one gave me the respect - no-one informed me why it was that I was being arrested. I did not know what was happening, I am the one who was in pain, but still they arrested me. My daughter had been shot, I was detained up to the time when my daughter died, the only time I was released is when I went to bury my child. MS SEROKE In your statement you say that when you were arrested they asked if you could give a statement and you refused, what did they want you to say? MS JANTJIE MS SEROKE MS JANTJIE MS SEROKE MR JANTJIE My brother then said we should go to the police station because apparently the car had - was driven off to the police station. As we were walking towards the police station, we were accosted by investigators. They said that it is me that they wanted, they said that I am the one who had killed Bhokwe - these investigators assaulted, threw me into their car, after that truly I do not know what was going on. MS BURTON [indistinct] while the witness speaks so that we can hear him. MR JANTJIE I am angry, I am not working - I have been tortured by police, I suffer, I am of ill health, I am unemployed, I suffer, my kidneys are not all right. MS SEROKE We understand - we understand. MR JANTJIE They were trying to cover up their filth - together with their Magistrate and their Judge, I was used as escape route - to cover up their filth. They wanted to save the man who had shot my sister. MS SEROKE Mr Nelson we understand your situation. MR JANTJIE MS SEROKE We understand your pain, but we ask that you try to control yourself. So that even when we ask our investigation team to find - to find out what happened, we as the Truth Commission would like to reach a place where there can be peace and forgiveness. I want to ask this [indistinct] that was a policeman, why do you think he shot Sophie? MR JANTJIE I do not know - I do not - I did not get a chance to find out. I was in Cape Town, apparently there was conflict between the comrades and the informers. Apparently before I came back from Cape Town, such conflict arose, I had just come back from work, I do not know what happened. MS SEROKE This is one of the things that we must find out, we want the truth so that there can be peace. That is all I am going to say for now, I going to hand over to the Chairperson. ADV POTGIETER I want to know what actually happened to you, you were charged. And you were found guilty, what were you found guilty of? MR JANTJIE They said I had killed [indistinct] the father of the man who had killed my sister, I was guilty of murder and attempted murder - 35 years in jail, I just got out because we got indemnity. I would still be in prison all because of lies. ADV POTGIETER But were you charged alone - were you the only person in that case? MR JANTJIE All we want is the truth, before the comrades took action my sister was already dead. ADV POTGIETER Was - I just want to get the names right, was it Jackson Tshemese or Geelboy that was killed? MR JANTJIE No. ADV POTGIETER Is dit different, two different persons - who was -who was killed, what was the persons name that was killed? MR JANTJIE It is Bhokwe Tshemese he is the father of the man who killed my sister. ADV POTGIETER And he was the one that was killed afterwards? MR JANTJIE Yes sir - after my sister had died. ADV POTGIETER And it was because - for his killing that they sentenced you. MR JANTJIE ADV POTGIETER And you were the only person that was convicted and sentenced for that murder of Bhokwe Tshemese. MR JANTJIE No sir as I said there were three of us, the others got suspended sentences. ADV POTGIETER [indistinct] and you were released, you were sentenced when - when were you sentenced. Wanneer - wanneer is u gestraf? MR JANTJIE A year - I stayed in detention for a year, then the following year in November or October I got sentenced. ADV POTGIETER So they arrested you in December of 1985 and you stayed in prison until you were sentenced - you never got bail. MR JANTJIE It is the police, the law - they are dangerous, I am not dangerous. But they are covering up their own filth. ADV POTGIETER But when were you released eventually in which year were you released? MR JANTJIE ADV POTGIETER When you were arrested you - I assumed that you were on holiday, you were working in Cape Town and you were back home on holiday the work was closed over the festive period. MR JANTJIE ADV POTGIETER And [indistinct] and you never got your job back, you obviously lost your job. MR JANTJIE I did not work again, to this day I do not work. ADV POTGIETER [indistinct] in Phillipstown at the moment. MR JANTJIE No I stay in de Aar. ADV POTGIETER [indistinct] and how do you survive? MR JANTJIE I try - what can I do, I cannot work, now and again I get temporally jobs, my kidneys are troubling me. ADV POTGIETER If I may ask you - how old are you now - what is your age? MR JANTJIE I am forty five years of age. ADV POTGIETER [indistinct] can I - okay thank you I am finished with Mr Jantjie. MS SEROKE MS JANTJIE My house as stoned. MS SEROKE In the statements that we have from our researchers, I will try to read for you maybe then it can be clearer why this was done. Apparently there was conflict amongst the people in the village. Sophie then accused the Tshemese family of having participated in stoning her house. The police version states that [indistinct] fired shots at Sophie, after the house was stoned. MS JANTJIE There is none such - this is all lies. When this conflict took place, Sophie was in Johannesburg. MS SEROKE They said that it is after she had come back from Johannesburg that she confronted them. MS JANTJIE There is none such, they just wrote lies - they are just running away from the truth. MS SEROKE Thank you. ADV POTGIETER I just want to get it clearly on record what you understood happened -it appears as if the people told you afterwards what happened and I just want you to confirm whether that is what you were told that she was beaten with a stick on the forehead op die voorkop by Jackson Tshemese. And when she was - when she was lying on the - lying down - after having been beaten, [indistinct] who is the son of Jackson Tshemese came and fired two shots at her while she was lying down, is that what you understood happened from what people told you. MS JANTJIE ADV POTGIETER [indistinct] were detained and were you taken to court? MS JANTJIE I did not go to court, I was just detained. It is before the funeral that my son came to ask for my release, so that I could go to the funeral. I was never taken to a court of law. We were just taken to Victoria West to bury my child, I never went to any court of law. ADV POTGIETER Thank you, were you - you were kept of a week in the police cells in Phillipstown, is that what happened? MS JANTJIE No it was not a week - it was a month. It is on the 2nd month that I was released to bury my daughter. I stayed in the cell for more than a months. ADV POTGIETER [indistinct] again in the cells after your daughter was buried? MS JANTJIE No I was not taken back. ADV POTGIETER [indistinct] at the time when your daughter was buried and then you were - you were not taken back into police custody. MS JANTJIE It is John Jantjie who came to ask for our release, they otherwise did not want us to go. Even the funeral they gave certain conditions. We wanted to bury my daughter on a Saturday, but it is on a Friday that they forced us to bury my daughter. ADV POTGIETER Thank you very much Ms Jantjie. MS SEROKE MS JANTJIE She just stayed one day, and the following day she passed away. We heard on the Monday as we had taken her in on the Saturday that she had passed away. MS SEROKE When then was she buried - did she - did her - how much time elapsed before she was buried, was it a week? MS JANTJIE MS BURTON And they tried to have protests with the Municipality but nothing very much seemed to help. And then there began to be detentions and action taken against the youth. And that stepped up the mood of anger and of militancy in the area and feelings generally became stronger and stronger on all sides. So our ongoing task will be to try to find out who is the guilty one, but in order to be able to say let us now try to turn the page, and move forward. So I thank you once again for coming to talk to us and I hope that you will if not be reconciled with what happened at least have a deeper understanding, not maybe today, but in the days ahead. There is a lot of work that still needs to be done among people in Phillipstown, thank you very much indeed, you may leave the stage now, thank you.