hrvtrans HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATION HEARINGS 1996-10-07 KAROO 1 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=55358&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/hrvtrans/karoo/ct01520.htm CASE NO: CT/01520/KAR VICTIM: AMBROSE MPEPETO VIOLATION: SHOT BY POLICE TESTIMONY BY: SANGO MPEPETO MS BURTON Please will you stand to take the oath. SANGO MPEPETO Duly sworn in states MS BURTON You are accompanied - is it by your wife? SANGO MPEPETO MS BURTON Thank you very much for coming too. Advocate Potgieter will facilitate your testimony. ADV POTGIETER MR MPEPETO ADV POTGIETER What position did he hold and in which organisation was it? MR MPEPETO My brother was a President of the DARA organisation. ADV POTGIETER That is the De Aar Residents Association, is that? MR MPEPETO Yes, it was the Residents Association of the Nonswagasi. ADV POTGIETER And in 1990 it seems as if the incident happened during August - August of 1990. MR MPEPETO ADV POTGIETER Was your brother, did he have a family or was he unmarried. MR MPEPETO He was married, but he had no children. ADV POTGIETER And was he living on his own with his - with his wife - his own house. MR MPEPETO Yes, he was living with his wife. ADV POTGIETER Now at that time when he was shot and killed - what was the situation like in De Aar? MR MPEPETO Because the shots you heard fired outside, they killed you son Ambrose and we tried to comfort her. She was strong. We went back to our homes and we slept and the next morning we went to the hospital to the mortuary to look for him. And we were told to wait for another surgeon and this white surgeon came and we said we just wanted to see the body of my brother. We - they showed us this body, my brother had a shot - a wound in the forehead and in the chest. And they - he also had a wound made with an axe in his body. We then went home. In conclusion - my mother can die any moment. She is emotionally disturbed. Each and every day she says that before she dies, she must know who killed her son. Then she will have peace in her heart. She wants to die peacefully. ADV POTGIETER Now this Mr Ngcaga and his wife, did they belong to any group or organisation. MR MPEPETO They are PAC members. ADV POTGIETER MR MPEPETO I know of no discordance with the Ngcaga family. Even when there were meetings he used to tell me I know about my brother. He used to investigate everything. If there was any corruption, he would investigate. Even in the meetings he spoke openly. But he never told me of any discordance with the Ngcaga family. ADV POTGIETER Now you say he was a person who was quote forthright about anything that was wrong and investigated things that was done wrong. Now in that investigation did it in any was affect the Mayoress, with the money issues and all that. MR MPEPETO I am not sure. But she was the Mayor at the Nonswagasi township. Her husband was not working. ADV POTGIETER Now you were telling us that you yourself, you are a man of peace, your brother we know, your late brother was the first president or the president of the Residence Association. What sort of person was he? MR MPEPETO Yes, it is so. ADV POTGIETER Was he a man of peace. What kind of person was he? MR MPEPETO He was a peacefully man. He was not chaotic at all. But if anybody went after him unnecessarily, he would retaliate. ADV POTGIETER You were saying that Pickup Tantsi was saying that he should have actually been the one that was killed. So your brother must have intervened somehow on his behalf. What was he actually saying - what happened. MR MPEPETO My brother got there and Pickup was there wanting to find out why the car was burnt down. My brother then said they must stop, because there would be chaos. That is when my brother was shot and Pickup was saved by running away. ADV POTGIETER So your brother really went there to try and avoid a conflict - to defuse a situation that could have led to conflict and violence possibly. MR MPEPETO Yes, it is so. ADV POTGIETER As a result of that, trying to avoid violence, he met violence, he met a violent death. MR MPEPETO Yes, he was trying to make peace, but he is the one who got shot at the end ironically. ADV POTGIETER Now you were saying that according to the information, it was Mr Ngcaga that was actually doing the shooting. MR MPEPETO It is Mr Ngcaga who shot, because Pickup was there and he said that he would give evidence that it was Mr Ngcaga who shot. ADV POTGIETER MR MPEPETO He had two wounds. Two bullet shots, in the forehead and in the chest and then apparently as he as lying down he was axed on the face. ADV POTGIETER And you - you saw those wounds - you saw the axe wounds on his face subsequently. MR MPEPETO When I went to the hospital I saw myself. ADV POTGIETER MR MPEPETO Yes, it is true - because her report was a joke - it was lies. ADV POTGIETER This allegation that your late brother was trying to rape her. What is your response to that. MR MPEPETO ADV POTGIETER And what happened to this case. Was any of Mr or Ms Ngcaga ever charged - convicted - sentenced? MR MPEPETO After the case when she could not tell the court, when she just started crying, the case did not continue. It has been quiet since. ADV POTGIETER So you have never been told of what the outcome of that case was. It just stopped when she started crying. MR MPEPETO After she had cried, the case did not continue. We would just hear rumours that the case is not continuing. As for me I asked for forgiveness from the Lord and asked the Lord to forgive those who had killed my brother. There is only one reason why I want the person who killed my brother to come forward, because it is because my mother is ill and all she wants to know is who killed her child. She does not necessarily want this person to be jailed. She just wants to know who it is. ADV POTGIETER [indistinct] Mr and Ms Ngcaga still live in De Aar? MR MPEPETO They are still here. ADV POTGIETER [indistinct] - Ms Ngcaga is now longer the Mayoress? MR MPEPETO ADV POTGIETER She is in the hall - during the incident she was at her own home. We then phoned her to tell her that her husband had passed away. She then arrived. ADV POTGIETER Mr Mpepeto thank you very much. MS SEROKE Mr Mpepeto it is clear the Ms Ngcaga used her position as a Mayoress to protect her husband when she said she is the one who shot your brother. But it is clear that she was never able to say who had axed your brother even though she had shot him. Is that how you think as well? MR MPEPETO Yes, I think so. MS SEROKE The man who had been watching - was he there in court during the procedure? MR MPEPETO He never went to court - he had been waiting to be called in, but he was never called in. I just heard by chance that there was a court case and I went. MS SEROKE Did you say that Ms Ngcaga had said that she was going to come with her family to your family to ask for forgiveness. MR MPEPETO No, she never came. MS SEROKE Did you try any means asking them why they did not come, because your mother is in ill health? MR MPEPETO If they want us to come together for them to ask forgiveness, we can do that. We can pray so that they also can be free inside. MS SEROKE How would it affect you if the Truth and Reconciliation Committee try and bring the two families together? Would it be good for you?MR MPEPETO I would be glad, because peace is all we want, forgiveness is all we want. MS SEROKE Thank you. MS BURTON We value your approach as you have said as you are a man of peace and we hope that something can be done to heal this division so that repentance and forgiveness can happen.