hrvtrans HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATION HEARINGS 1996-10-07 KAROO 1 CT/ HEADMAN DWYALI HEADMAN DWYALI SEVERE TORTURE https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=55363&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/hrvtrans/karoo/dwyali.htm MS BURTON We call the next witness to the stage. He is Headman Dwyali. Do you know whether she is going to speak too. Good morning. HEADMAN DWYALI MS BURTON HEADMAN DWYALI Duly sworn states. MS BURTON Your testimony will be facilitated by Adv Potgieter. ADV POTGIETER Thank you Chairperson. Good morning Mr Dwyali, welcome here. There is somebody with you - is that your mother? HEADMAN DWYALI ADV POTGIETER Morning to Mrs Dwyali as well and welcome to you as well and thank you for coming with your son. Now Mr Dwyali I want you to relax and tell us exactly what happened. Now your testimony relates to your detention and what happened subsequent to that on the 4th of July 1995. Now before we talk about that, the actual incident, perhaps you can tell us, in 1985 what were you doing then - were you a student? HEADMAN DWYALI No, I was not at school in 1985. I had stopped schooling already. ADV POTGIETER HEADMAN DWYALI Yes, I was political. - I was political. ADV POTGIETER Were you involved with [indistinct] at that stage? MR DWYALI Yes I was. ADV POTGIETER [indistinct] congress in De Aar then. MR DWYALI Yes, there was sir. ADV POTGIETER Now you in fact got arrested and detained on the 4th of July in that year of 1985. What did the police say, why were they taking you? MR DWYALI ADV POTGIETER [Indistinct] person that was arrested in connection with these allegation or were you a group of people? MR DWYALI No, it was not me alone. There were other people - there was a few of us. ADV POTGIETER And what did you gather, was the police just sort of questioning you in general, they did not have any specific information about your own involvement. MR DWYALI They were not asking me, they were telling me what I had done. ADV POTGIETER Now perhaps before we just move onto the incident, were you involved in, you say that you were involved in the youth structure, but how were you involved. Were you just an ordinary member, were you on the executive, what sort of involvement were you. MR DWYALI I was just a member, I was not in the leadership. I loved that organisation. ADV POTGIETER You say that the police took you in and they were telling you that this is what you have done. How did things develop from there - I assume you denied what they were saying. MR DWYALI Should I start my story now. ADV POTGIETER Yes, please do that. MR DWYALI I was arrested in the morning - his name was Snyman, Thomas and Smith. These were the policemen that arrested me - China as well. China is the one who pointed me out and identified me as Madoda. They took me in the morning. They put me in a police van. They drove me to the police station. When I got to the police station, they had taken other people with as well. When we got to the police station, it was still in the morning, we sat there. Our parents came the same day to this police station to ascertain what happened. They were told that they could not see us. At about seven - eight the same day, Snyman and Thomas came and opened my cell. There is a cane that was put under me. This cane, they put some stuff in my body as well. My body was just going funny in a very painful way, with sounds, I was crying and crying. Then they switched off whatever it is they were using. They said I must tell the truth. I burnt down the structures, I said it was not me. They started again, they switched on whatever it is that they were using. It was very painful, my strength evaded me. They stopped again - they asked yet again. I denied, again they started. And eventually I just admitted. They then said that they would stopped and they stopped. Eventually they said I must go make a statement. They took me into a cell, I slept. I told the other comrades, the accused, exactly what happened to me. I heard a sound - they took a huge box out of the car. It was just me and the van. Somehow my head was being slapped back and fro. I was dizzy. There was tear gas everything - I was falling all over. There was no ventilation. There is nothing I could break - it was just iron everywhere. I was going up and down at the back of the van. I was bereft of strength. They opened the van eventually and I just fell on the road. Snyman kicked me. He said I am going to tell the truth. I was dizzy. I was just crying, asking what have I done, they would not tell me. They carried on until they were tired and they put me back into the van. They drove back - back to my cell. Our parents were told not to come that day. They were told that they could not see us. We took our heads and put them in the toilet, because all we wanted was air, we wanted to breath. We were fighting over the toilet. At night they took us and threw us outside - that is the only time we got some air. After we breathed sufficiently, they took us back into the cell. My life has never been the same. I was sentenced twelve years in prison. After I was sentenced I was mentally disturbed. Now and again I get disturbed. Even now - I served my term and I was released when the other political prisoner were released. This was after six months in jail. ADV POTGIETER How old were you when you went through this experience in 1985? MR DWYALI I was fifteen years of age. ADV POTGIETER Now you say that Snyman and Thomas is two policemen who were assaulting you and torturing you as you had described to us and they wanted you to make a statement. Did you actually make a statement as a result of this treatment? MR DWYALI Yes, I gave a statement eventually, because I could no longer take the pain. I had to admit to what I did not know. ADV POTGIETER [Indistinct] you made a confession to this these allegations of arson. MR DWYALI Yes, I admitted that I was guilty. ADV POTGIETER Did you make it to the make it to the magistrate or did you make it to one of the police officers or what? MR DWYALI We were taken to the Magistrate. I first told the Magistrate that I will not give any statement. I am waiting for an attorney I said. The Magistrate did not make me make a statement. But they came to fetch me and they tortured me yet again, because I would not make a statement. I said I will give a statement at Sanlam. There was a special Magistrate that worked in the evenings. I had to give the statement to this Magistrate. I told him that I want an attorney. Again they took me back to the cells and tortured me. The third time when I returned I did not give a statement, but at Sanlam, I eventually gave a statement. If I had not given a statement, perhaps I would be dead today. ADV POTGIETER And that statement that you eventually gave, did you make that statement to the Magistrate that was on duty at night time also. MR DWYALI ADV POTGIETER MR DWYALI I did not see this Magistrate after he had taken my statement, but it was a Magistrate that was always there in the evenings. During the day there was a different Magistrate all together. ADV POTGIETER Was that statement then used in court against you? And were you then found guilty of arson on the basis of that statement that you made? MR DWYALI Yes, it is as a result of that statement that I was sentenced. ADV POTGIETER Was there any eye witness that came to court that said that they saw you setting these structure alight that you referred to? Or was it only on that statement that they convicted you? MR DWYALI ADV POTGIETER Now you were then sentenced, I assume with some other people, with co-accused? MR DWYALI There were two charges against me. In the one case I was sentenced for eighteen years, the other case I was sentenced for twelve years. Eight years, sorry - the eight years in prison. ADV POTGIETER Which part of that sentence did you actually serve? For how long were you actually in prison? MR DWYALI Four years, six months. ADV POTGIETER And just to come back and to clarify, Thomas and Snyman, were they security policemen, or what kind of policemen were they? MR DWYALI They were investigators at the time. ADV POTGIETER [indistinct] MR DWYALI ADV POTGIETER [Indistinct] you say that this experience affected you mentally. Are you getting medical treatment for that condition at present? MR DWYALI Last month he called me in for a meeting. He asked me what is wrong. I told - I told him that I am healthy, my body is healthy, but my heart is aching - he called me last month. ADV POTGIETER MR DWYALI I am married - no I do not have children. I only have illegitimate children. ADV POTGIETER [Indistinct]MR DWYALI No, they do not stay with me - they are illegitimate. ADV POTGIETER [Indistinct] support . MR DWYALI Yes, I do, but I earn very little. ADV POTGIETER [Indistinct] MR DWYALI No, she does not work. ADV POTGIETER MR DWYALI ADV POTGIETER Thank you very much. I hand back to the Chairperson. MS BURTON Headman, you say you were a member of an organisation, but you did not say the name of the organisation. MR DWYALI It was called Dara. MS BURTON You said when Snyman and Thomas were taking you, there is a man called China who identified you. Was it a policeman, or was it just a member of the community? MR DWYALI Then he was just a member of our community. But now is a policeman. MS BURTON Did he say that he saw you burning down the structures or did he just say you were a member of the organisation?MR DWYALI He pointed me out, because when we were toi-toiing, he was there with us. MS BURTON You mentioned also that there was a friend with you who had the same treatment. Do you know whether he has come to make a statement to the Truth and Reconciliation Commission? MR DWYALI So he does not want to give evidence. He does not want come here. He says that the guilty people, the perpetrators of violence were left behind in the location, but it is innocent ones that went into prison, that were tortured - he refused to come. MS BURTON Ms Dwyali, thank you too for coming today. These experiences have an effect on families and everybody suffers when a son or a husband or a brother or a wife experiences this. So we hope that things will be better for you in the future and we thank you very much for coming today.