hrvtrans HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATION HEARINGS 1996-06-11 KIMBERLEY 2 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=55371&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/hrvtrans/kimber/ct00140.htm CASE NO: CT/00140 VICTIM: WILLIAM RAKUBU [son] VIOLATION: DISAPPEARED IN EXILE TESTIMONIES BY: DORA WILLIAMS [mother] JOHN WILLIAMS [father] MS SOOKA We now call Dora Williams to the witness stand please. Mr and Ms Williams, we would like to thank you for coming to the Truth Commission. Before we begin your evidence we would like you both to take the oath please. Ms Williams if you could you please stand. ADV POTGIETER Can I do this in Afrikaans, right. DORAH WILLIAMS Duly sworn states ADV POTGIETER Thank you very much you may sit down. MS SOOKA [indistinct] understand that you are also going to give testimony would you stand please to take the oath. ADV POTGIETER What are your full names? MR WILLIAMS John Williams. JOHN WILLIAMS Duly sworn states ADV POTGIETER Thank you very much, you may sit. MS SOOKA Ms and Mr Williams as is customary we have assigned Glenda, the Commissioner on my right hand side to assist you in the leading of your evidence. I will now hand over to Glenda. MS WILDSCHUT Good morning Mr and Ms Williams, thank you very much for coming. We know that it has been quite a long wait for you as well. You have been coming here since the weekend - Friday and we know that it has been a long wait. Thank you very much for your patience and I wonder if I can start with you Ms Williams. You are coming to tell us about the story of your son Rakubu Williams and - and what had happened to him, we are talking about his disappearance. Would you like to tell us a little bit about yourself and then also to tell us what happened. MS WILLIAMS MS SOOKA MS WILLIAMS We found Tsidi and Tsidi went to a lot of trouble, he went to Lesotho to try and find out what had happened to our children. When he came back he told us that he just heard that they were in Tanzania, but that he was going to try and find out from the PAC offices in Johannesburg - to find out. When he came back he said he said that they did not really want to tell him the truth about our children and we tried everything, we went to the Red Cross for instance to ask them to help us to look for our children. The Red Cross also tried various avenues, but to no avail. All the people who left with my son returned, but my son never returned. MS WILDSCHUT I know this is very difficult Ms Williams, but I wonder if I could ask you a few more questions about your son. Can you tell us how old he was when - when he first went away? MS WILLIAMS He was 22 - 23 when he left. MS WILDSCHUT At the time that he went away from - from home was he active in PAC? Was he active in a political organisation at that time when he went away? MS WILLIAMS MS WILDSCHUT So what you know about is that he was busy training to become a teacher and working at the time? MS WILLIAMS Yes, he was working in Finch Mine. MS WILDSCHUT In Finch Mine? MS WILLIAMS MS WILDSCHUT Did he give you any indication that he was leaving the country, did he talk to you about it, did he give you hints that he was going to leave or did he just disappear? MS WILLIAMS MS WILDSCHUT So the police came to your place to tell you that your son had gone or did they come to inquire where your son was? MS WILLIAMS MS WILDSCHUT Any of the people who had worked with him at the time or who were friends with him, did they know what had happened - did they try to understand what had happened and where he had gone to? The friends who came to play Chess with him? MS WILLIAMS No, none of them knew anything about my son. The one who said that he was in Tanzania - he did not tell that to us, he told one of the other friends who is also a PAC member - and he said that he was too scared to actually tell us that Joba was dead, that Joba had been killed in a camp and Johannes had been shot dead at the airport. MS WILDSCHUT MS WILLIAMS MS WILDSCHUT [indistinct] understand was your son - the reports that you got from the other people, was it that you son was killed at - in the camp or at the airport? MS WILLIAMS My son was killed at the - at the camp. MS WILDSCHUT Okay. MS WILLIAMS And the other son was [intervention] MS WILDSCHUT Oh! the other young man? MS WILLIAMS Killed at the airport. MS WILDSCHUT Okay, I understand that - I need to just find out a little bit more from you. The attempts you made to try and find out what happened. Could you take us through that again? Can you tell us what you did to try and find out what happened to your son? MS WILLIAMS MS WILDSCHUT Was it The South African Council of Churches. MS WILLIAMS And then Fikele July - Fikele July had said he had seen him but that the offices were closed at that particular time and that he would go back on Saturday but that never happened. MS WILDSCHUT These people were from Red Cross and from the SACC offices and the PAC offices but you also tell us in your statement that some detectives came to your house, why did the detectives come to your house? MS WILLIAMS MS WILDSCHUT Did the detectives come to you - ever come to your house after your son had disappeared? MS WILLIAMS MS WILDSCHUT Did it puzzle you that they came and said to you that your son is in good hands? MS WILLIAMS Did I what? MS WILDSCHUT Did you wonder why it was that they came to you and tell you that your son is in good hands? MS WILLIAMS MS WILDSCHUT Yes I think we would now want to speak to Mr Williams and - and hear from him how he understands the story. But thank you very much for talking to us. Could we please appeal to you to be quite, because the witnesses cannot testify, we cannot hear them and that means we not according them a proper opportunity to tell their stories. MR WILLIAMS He was a good man but if you crossed him then he was - then he was very difficult. And then he first washed, when he got back he continued to prepare himself very neatly and - and then he came forward and said here I am. They said we are going to take you away now and I said the only thing you must not do is to lay a hand on this son of mine please. And I repeated you will not lay a hand on him - they left with him. I said where are you taking him - we taking him to the police station they answered. But the special branch policemen they were harassing us all the time, so much so that we had sleepless nights at times. It was really extremely unpleasant because they would come to our house and my wife could not stand it. She had to have constant medical treatment as a result of all this stress. Eventually I learned that they would go around to each and every member of my family, whether they were in Kimberley or wherever, to try and find out where he was. MS WILDSCHUT I just have one or two more questions to ask you if I may. When you say - hulle het hom dood gemaak, who are you referring to? MR WILLIAMS It must be the police or those sent by the police, who else could it have been? MS WILDSCHUT I also need to find out from you Mr Williams - did anybody tell you that your son had another name when he went into exile - did he - did he change his name. MR WILLIAMS MS WILDSCHUT What you heard from others was that he may have had two names other than the name that you gave him. MR WILLIAMS MS WILDSCHUT But those names he already had when he was here at home - but he was known in exile by his friends - were by those names - not by William Rakubu. MR WILLIAMS Not as far as I know. MS WILDSCHUT When you referred to Ntsiko are you talking about the Oscar Ntsiko that we keep hearing about yesterday and today? MR WILLIAMS Yes, Oscar a very tall man. MS WILDSCHUT ADV POTGIETER Thank you Chairperson - Mr Williams I just want to make sure of something, was it in 1979 - 1980 that he left? MR WILLIAMS Yes. ADV POTGIETER Was he involved in the PAC? MR WILLIAMS That we only found out afterwards. ADV POTGIETER Was there a person Mospoweni who also went into exile, did he give you any information? MR WILLIAMS Moss? ADV POTGIETER MR WILLIAMS ADV POTGIETER Was it this man who told you that you son went to Tanzania in 1986? MR WILLIAMS ADV POTGIETER Fikele - Fikele July is that the man we are talking about? Because I have a note here that says your son went from Lesotho to Tanzania in 1986 under the care of the United Nations Commissioner for Refugees. Which year are we talking about - 1986 according to the note. MR WILLIAMS ADV POTGIETER But was this information given to you at any stage. These - these people who used to come to you with news. MR WILLIAMS ADV POTGIETER Yes, I understand that thank you Mr Williams. ADV NTSEBEZA MR WILLIAMS Excuse me for a moment I just want to put my head phones on. ADV NTSEBEZA Now, did you ever get any more details about how - why and by whom your son was killed in Tanzania. MR WILLIAMS No. ADV NTSEBEZA MR WILLIAMS ADV NTSEBEZA I - I understand Mr Williams - now what - what would you as a family request from the Truth Commission? MR WILLIAMS Perhaps the Government can make it possible for us to have a pleasant life. You see my wife has been an invalid - she was bedridden for 9 weeks during which nobody except the people from the church came to us to find out how we were. She is stiff suffering. I can no longer work - I have a problem with my leg this is an old Army wound - a war wound from World War 2 - I was never compensated for it, was never even thanked. MS SOOKA I just want to ask one more question for clarity. Your wife mentioned that when you went to Johannesburg you went to see the South African Council of Churches. Could you tell me - I was not sure if that was the church in Kimberley or the Council of Churches in Johannesburg? MR WILLIAMS No it was in Kimberley. MS SOOKA Could you tell me the name of the person you spoke to at the [intervention] MR WILLIAMS MS SOOKA Did you ever hear from them again? MR WILLIAMS Pardon me. MS SOOKA Did you ever hear from the church again in connection with your son? MR WILLIAMS MS SOOKA Thank you - Mr Potgieter wants to ask you another question. ADV POTGIETER MR WILLIAMS Parweni - Parweni. ADV POTGIETER And your wife referred to Johannes [intervention] MR WILLIAMS ADV POTGIETER Yes. MR WILLIAMS ADV POTGIETER Right and then your wife referred to Johannes who was also shot. MR WILLIAMS ADV POTGIETER And what is their surname? MR WILLIAMS What is their surname - Moletsane. ADV POTGIETER Thank you. MS SOOKA We would like to thank you for coming here and for sharing your story with us, thank you.