hrvtrans HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATION HEARINGS 1996-06-11 KIMBERLEY 2 CT/00653 IZAKIEL MOKONE SIPHO MOSES MBAQA KILLED BY HAND GRENADE DURING MARCH https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=55380&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/hrvtrans/kimber/ct00653b.htm MS SOOKA Would Sipho Moses Mbaqa first stand please - can you hear me now? MR MBAQA I can hear you. MS SOOKA ADV POTGIETER Sipho, will you please stand first so that you can take the oath? SIPHO MOSES MBAQA Duly sworn states ADV POTGIETER Thank you very much, you can be seated. MS SOOKA Are you able to hear? MR MBAQA Yes. MS SOOKA Are you sure - okay Commissioner Ntsebeza will now assist you to lead your evidence. ADV NTSEBEZA Good afternoon, I will start by speaking to Sipho. Who is Sipho? MR MBAQA ADV NTSEBEZA I would like you to take only three minutes to give us the details in connection with your background and then we will start to get into the core of the matter. Are you going to speak Xhosa? MR MBAQA No I am going to speak English. ADV NTSEBEZA Oh! okay - you can go. MR MBAQA Yes I am Sipho Moses Mbaqa. I come from a family of five brothers - I come from a family of five brothers and one sister and I am the third one. I was born here in Kimberley - I grew up here and I went to school here like everybody and throughout the turbulent years as everybody knows that we never really had a proper schooling although we would talk about schooling because of boycotts year in and year out. MS SOOKA Could we ask that you move in quite and as quickly as possible because you are interfering with the witnesses ability to give his testimony clearly. Could we have silence please. ADV NTSEBEZA Ja just before we go on are you comfortable with English or would you wish to speak in another language? MR MBAQA No - no I am very comfortable. ADV NTSEBEZA Oh! ja - okay - I would like a witness to testify in a language he is best able to give his testimony - if you comfortable it seems okay. MR MBAQA Yes. ADV NTSEBEZA So you were still saying that you were working for the ANC Youth League. MR MBAQA Yes and - but now then I had been in the Youth Leaguer for - for many years despite that - even before the ANC was un-banned I was a Youth League until those times when the ANC was un-banned I was there all the time until of course I was arrested for this murder and convicted. ADV NTSEBEZA MR MBAQA No certainly not. ADV NTSEBEZA Ja, can you just tell us briefly the events of that day as you recall them before we get on to what happened to you thereafter. MR MBAQA So when the students were assaulted there on that day, one of whom is a fairly prominent person by the name of Soliboka, he was there involved also there - he was assaulted on that day. So we organised that march on that day to the Bop Consulate here in Kimberley to actually protest what had happened to those students on that particular day. And that, that was the purpose of that march among the other things. ADV NTSEBEZA Yes, if you will just carry on and relate events of that day, so there was this march it was progressing, what happened. MR MBAQA So because I wanted to get this thing away from me it was his anyway and I was anxious to get it away from me because he had left it with me about three - four weeks ago and I had been pestering him to come and take this thing of his. So he then came back [indistinct] to come and take it, so I made him the favour and I took that thing and I of course placed it beside my bag and I left with the Chairperson of the ANC Youth League and another chap of the Kimberley Civic Association, they call him Vernon Patrick and another comrade of the civic also is Lionel Jacobs and Mafu Davids who was the publicity secretary of the ANC Youth League during that time. We then joined the march and this grenade was still in my bag and it did happen that when we reached the town somewhere in town here, he did come to me and said well bring me - bring me this thing - he took it [intervention] ADV NTSEBEZA Just to clarify something there. When you say when you were in town, was it in the process of the march. MR MBAQA Yes certainly it was in the process. ADV NTSEBEZA When he said just let me have that thing. MR MBAQA ADV NTSEBEZA Okay, and Lawrence - Lawrence who - do you know who - his other name? MR MBAQA ADV NTSEBEZA Mbatha. MR MBAQA Yes. ADV NTSEBEZA Okay. MR MBAQA ADV NTSEBEZA Who was going to be given these memoranda? MR MBAQA Is the Bop Consulate. ADV NTSEBEZA And was Mangope there, as well. MR MBAQA He was obviously not there - his Consul was there. ADV NTSEBEZA Only the Consul. MR MBAQA Yes. ADV NTSEBEZA All right. MR MBAQA Well I thought at that stage that it was tear gas so I also ran away. But I - I just ran a short distance and what possibly happened you know it just occurred to me, at that point as to what possibly happened. So I then went back you know and - but when I went back I could not hear you know what - what people were saying, my eyes - my ears I beg your pardon, were sort of you know that sensation you have if you had been swimming - that sensation - so I could not properly what people were saying it was just like you know - and I saw people lying there - I saw some of our own people were there. Some comrades I cannot recall who they were, but they were there - and others were saying, call the ambulance and so on and I ran again to the ANC office. And then I found Mafu Davids and the others they were there and some other people who had been slightly injured, who had managed to - because the ANC office was not far from that scene. So some people who were slightly injured they were already there and I found that they had already of course called the ambulance and so on and you know it was just sirens - police sirens and everything. ADV NTSEBEZA At that stage did you think of the grenade that you had been shown under the jacket? MR MBAQA I was thinking about it exactly I in fact after the blast I said I ran away, I stopped you know when I could - as soon as I recovered - it occurred to me what possibly could have happened, because I did see that guy with that thing. So I went back too - just to confirm you know what I was already suspecting and I could - I found that no, this was actually a kind of explosion. ADV NTSEBEZA Who did you go and confirm with, with Mbatha or the person who had shown you [intervention] MR MBAQA They then took me to the District Surgeon - after that they took me back to Transvaal Road police station to - to the same people, from there they took me to Barkly West, I then slept there and then the following day begun the interrogation sessions. And as days go on, I realised that these people were becoming you know serious with their story and it was at that point then - then I decided that you must remember - as I said earlier, when this thing happened - nobody said to me I - I must not accept Lawrence, nobody placed me under pressure to say you know I must not speak about what I saw. I took it out of my own you know not to speak - so when I realised these people - this police are becoming so serious about this matter of Nkosinathi - I then decided to tell them the truth. I told them the truth - I told them what the whole situation and that situation they have it in their files. If they produce their files they will find that I told them exactly what happened. I then decided to go on a hunger strike. I went on a hunger strike for about ten days and at some stage I went to the hospital and they were coming repeatedly to visit me you know just to get me to confirm the story - they wanting me to confirm this story of Nkosinathi. It was the first time I then met Nkosinathi, I then I asked him how do you get involved in this matter and then he told me a long story of how you know the police were pressurising him and so on - otherwise I will leave that to him, he will talk about it. I then told him actually well this is what happened and he then took it up I think with the - with the leadership and so on. And I was further interrogated or questioned by some - by some of the people from the Security Department of the ANC on - on this matter. And then ultimately then we were put on - we were put on trial. But then at that stage I was told and of course we were represented then by Advocate Denzil Potgieter. We then decided no you know we could not do this thing because what was happening during that same period the police were busy wanting to drag other people into this matter, saying all sorts of things and intimidating people saying before they see us - they must obviously expect - exploiting the ignorance of people of well - before they see us they must first ask permission from them. Of course that practise was stopped by the prison people who said that is nonsense, it is not necessary to us - permission from police. Because at time as I said because of this intimidation of the police many of my old comrades had actually abandoned me. Even those chaps who were with me you know who possibly could - who possibly could say what the police were saying, it is not true you know. Even they had fled. We were then put on trial - with that obviously cooked evidence. We then battled with that evidence, but they seemingly had enough resources to bring in all sorts of false witnesses to the extent that they brought in even our own comrade, and then our comrade then [intervention] ADV NTSEBEZA Who is that comrade? MR MBAQA ADV NTSEBEZA Thembikosi. MR MBAQA Yes - you know being I knew as a comrade and I trusted very much and so on - but he came that day and he was this State witness, obviously saying something that was not true because at least I had an - I had an idea. But he was saying something completely wrong and he stood by it. And I had no doubt in my mind that this chap was saying something he rehearsed for a very long time because he just was not making mistakes. It is difficult for a young chap of his age to say you know something like that without making mistakes and only makes mistakes when really cornered. ADV NTSEBEZA Now when you - I suppose when you said you tried everything to break him with your interrogation you meant cross-examination. MR MBAQA ADV NTSEBEZA Oh! MR MBAQA ADV NTSEBEZA All right and this advocate Potgieter is he the one who is now Commissioner. MR MBAQA ADV NTSEBEZA What was his story [indistinct] MR MBAQA He said he only saw me there because he was standing in front he apparently saw me standing with Nkosinathi at the back and then he apparently saw me giving Nkosinathi a grenade. But then he was asked how could he have seen - when he was asked how could he have seen me giving Nkosinathi a grenade if we were standing at the back, obviously with a lot of people in front of us, he then said no he did not see - he actually did not see me giving Nkosinathi a grenade. He saw our shoulders moving. We dropped him there and then as it was clear that he was not going to change his story. MS SOOKA Order please. ADV NTSEBEZA MR MBAQA ADV NTSEBEZA Now were you convicted as a consequence of that evidence? MR MBAQA No, the whole matter was not so simple - you know this was a very sophisticated case - I was not convicted by his evidence per se. He was used to tackle me and partly to tackle Nkosinathi because the evidence was such that Nkosinathi was arguing and rightfully so, that he was not there. ADV NTSEBEZA Now it is common cause that you now serve twelve years imprisonment. MR MBAQA Yes. ADV NTSEBEZA As a consequence thereof - now how much of that time have you served already. MR MBAQA I have served probably two - two ADV NTSEBEZA Two years. MR MBAQA Two and a half - two and a half years - yes should be. ADV NTSEBEZA Ja - now I just want to ask you how - how you feel. MR MBAQA ADV NTSEBEZA Do you have any views about the judicial system. MR MBAQA I certainly have. ADV NTSEBEZA MR MBAQA Yes. ADV NTSEBEZA What is your view and attitude of and about the judicial system after what you have gone through. MR MBAQA Well you know - well you know and I would probably give a very political response - because I [intervention] ADV NTSEBEZA You can give any response you want to. MR MBAQA The system that looked at the police - the judiciary even the parliament and everything, obviously we had that suspicion and that little disrespect for those institutions you know. And when this happened, I always knew you know when these things happened for - to other people, but when the police did this and it really happened - it was happening to me - you know I could really feel that well here was - it was the first time I came close to seeing you know how the police can manipulate the system and so on. ADV NTSEBEZA Who had refused to accept the evidence - the Attorney General? MR MBAQA Pardon? ADV NTSEBEZA Was it the Attorney General or the State Prosecutor who had refused to accept the evidence of Smiles - what do you know? MR MBAQA Well apparently it is the police but then I reckon it was on the advice of the Attorney General, I mean you know that - that the case is the case of the Attorney General so he might have said no. He advised them, he is their lawyer - he is a state lawyer, so I take it they had their advice from the Attorney General. If - that is my assumption, it could have been the other way. It could have been their own initiative to refuse to accept that evidence. ADV NTSEBEZA Thank you Sipho. I think I should take the evidence of Nkosinathi before I ask other Commissioners to put other questions to you.