<?xml version="1.0" encoding="windows-1252"?>
<hearing xmlns="http://trc.saha.org.za/hearing/xml" schemaLocation="https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/export/hearingxml.xsd">
	<systype>hrvtrans</systype>
	<type>HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATION HEARINGS</type>
	<startdate>1996-06-10</startdate>
	<location>KIMBERLEY</location>
	<day>1</day>
								<url>https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=55388&amp;t=&amp;tab=hearings</url>
	<originalhtml>https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/hrvtrans/kimber/ct04601.htm</originalhtml>
		<lines count="130">
		<line number="1">
			<speaker></speaker>
			<text>CASE NO: CT/04601</text>
		</line>
		<line number="2">
			<speaker></speaker>
			<text>VICTIM: AUBREY KGATIWANE</text>
		</line>
		<line number="3">
			<speaker></speaker>
			<text>VIOLATION: SON BEATEN BY IFP MEMBERS</text>
		</line>
		<line number="4">
			<speaker></speaker>
			<text>TESTIMONY BY: GRACE KGATIWANE</text>
		</line>
		<line number="5">
			<speaker></speaker>
			<text>DR BORAINE</text>
		</line>
		<line number="6">
			<speaker></speaker>
			<text>[indistinct] - I call the next witnesses - Ms Grace Kgatiwane and Mr Tommy Kgatiwane - if you will please come forward.</text>
		</line>
		<line number="7">
			<speaker></speaker>
			<text></text>
		</line>
		<line number="8">
			<speaker></speaker>
			<text> They want to give evidence in Afrikaans - fine - okay.</text>
		</line>
		<line number="9">
			<speaker></speaker>
			<text>CHAIRPERSON</text>
		</line>
		<line number="10">
			<speaker></speaker>
			<text>They want to do it in Afrikaans.</text>
		</line>
		<line number="11">
			<speaker></speaker>
			<text>DR BORAINE</text>
		</line>
		<line number="12">
			<speaker></speaker>
			<text>Yes but Denzil is going to do it.  All right you can hear me now - fine.  Would you please both stand to take the oath.</text>
		</line>
		<line number="13">
			<speaker></speaker>
			<text>GRACE KGATIWANE Verklaar onder eed</text>
		</line>
		<line number="14">
			<speaker></speaker>
			<text>DR BORAINE</text>
		</line>
		<line number="15">
			<speaker></speaker>
			<text>Baie dankie, sit asseblief.</text>
		</line>
		<line number="16">
			<speaker></speaker>
			<text> I want to say again a very special word of welcome to you.  Denzil Potgieter is going to ask you some questions  to help you tell your story and he will do in Afrikaans.   So if you like you can take the head phones off  because you will be able to follow but, however, whatever makes you feel comfortable - you do just know that you are amongst friends and we are very-very glad that you came today.  Mr Potgieter.</text>
		</line>
		<line number="17">
			<speaker></speaker>
			<text>ADV POTGIETER</text>
		</line>
		<line number="18">
			<speaker></speaker>
			<text></text>
		</line>
		<line number="19">
			<speaker></speaker>
			<text>VOORSITTER</text>
		</line>
		<line number="20">
			<speaker></speaker>
			<text></text>
		</line>
		<line number="21">
			<speaker></speaker>
			<text>ADV POTGIETER</text>
		</line>
		<line number="22">
			<speaker></speaker>
			<text></text>
		</line>
		<line number="23">
			<speaker></speaker>
			<text></text>
		</line>
		<line number="24">
			<speaker></speaker>
			<text>VOORSITTER</text>
		</line>
		<line number="25">
			<speaker></speaker>
			<text>Aanskakel - jy moet hom eers aanskakel en dan kom die rooi lig aan.</text>
		</line>
		<line number="26">
			<speaker></speaker>
			<text>ADV POTGIETER</text>
		</line>
		<line number="27">
			<speaker></speaker>
			<text></text>
		</line>
		<line number="28">
			<speaker></speaker>
			<text>Mevrou u saak gaan oor u ander seun - no Mr Briefer we are just using that one there ja.  Okay is dit naby genoeg aan mevrou okay.  Mevrou u praat oor die saak van u ander seun van Aubrey.</text>
		</line>
		<line number="29">
			<speaker></speaker>
			<text>ME KGATIWANE</text>
		</line>
		<line number="30">
			<speaker></speaker>
			<text>Ja.</text>
		</line>
		<line number="31">
			<speaker></speaker>
			<text>ADV POTGIETER</text>
		</line>
		<line number="32">
			<speaker></speaker>
			<text>En Tommy wat daar langs u sit is ook u seun.</text>
		</line>
		<line number="33">
			<speaker></speaker>
			<text>ME KGATIWANE</text>
		</line>
		<line number="34">
			<speaker></speaker>
			<text>Ja.</text>
		</line>
		<line number="35">
			<speaker></speaker>
			<text>ADV POTGIETER</text>
		</line>
		<line number="36">
			<speaker></speaker>
			<text></text>
		</line>
		<line number="37">
			<speaker></speaker>
			<text>ME KGATIWANE</text>
		</line>
		<line number="38">
			<speaker></speaker>
			<text>Ja.</text>
		</line>
		<line number="39">
			<speaker></speaker>
			<text>ADV POTGIETER</text>
		</line>
		<line number="40">
			<speaker></speaker>
			<text></text>
		</line>
		<line number="41">
			<speaker></speaker>
			<text>ME KGATIWANE</text>
		</line>
		<line number="42">
			<speaker></speaker>
			<text>Ja.</text>
		</line>
		<line number="43">
			<speaker></speaker>
			<text>ADV POTGIETER</text>
		</line>
		<line number="44">
			<speaker></speaker>
			<text></text>
		</line>
		<line number="45">
			<speaker></speaker>
			<text>ME KGATIWANE</text>
		</line>
		<line number="46">
			<speaker></speaker>
			<text>Ja ek kan nou nog onthou.</text>
		</line>
		<line number="47">
			<speaker></speaker>
			<text>ADV POTGIETER</text>
		</line>
		<line number="48">
			<speaker></speaker>
			<text>Kan u vir ons vertel wat daar gebeur het, hoe Aubrey seergemaak was.</text>
		</line>
		<line number="49">
			<speaker></speaker>
			<text>ME KGATIWANE</text>
		</line>
		<line number="50">
			<speaker></speaker>
			<text>Toe Aubrey seergemaak is -  [onduidelik]  die Saterdagaand - seker maar die Sondag was hy seergemaak, maar die Saterdagaand het daardie mense gekom  [onduidelik] </text>
		</line>
		<line number="51">
			<speaker></speaker>
			<text>ADV POTGIETER</text>
		</line>
		<line number="52">
			<speaker></speaker>
			<text>Mevrou - ja sit so bietjie nader dan gaan u stem hard praat as u in daai mikrofoon praat.</text>
		</line>
		<line number="53">
			<speaker></speaker>
			<text>ME KGATIWANE</text>
		</line>
		<line number="54">
			<speaker></speaker>
			<text>Daar het mense gekom met die bus saam daarso.</text>
		</line>
		<line number="55">
			<speaker></speaker>
			<text>ADV POTGIETER</text>
		</line>
		<line number="56">
			<speaker></speaker>
			<text></text>
		</line>
		<line number="57">
			<speaker></speaker>
			<text>ME KGATIWANE</text>
		</line>
		<line number="58">
			<speaker></speaker>
			<text></text>
		</line>
		<line number="59">
			<speaker></speaker>
			<text></text>
		</line>
		<line number="60">
			<speaker></speaker>
			<text></text>
		</line>
		<line number="61">
			<speaker></speaker>
			<text></text>
		</line>
		<line number="62">
			<speaker></speaker>
			<text>Ek het nie eers my kind gesien toe hy in die kar - hoor net dis reg.  En toe hy daar kom daarso toe kom sy suster net in - sesuur nou - dis sesuur en sy suster moet nou inval  - sesuur toe moet sy suster nou gaan saam met  [onduidelik]  vir hom wegbring hiernatoe Kimberley toe.</text>
		</line>
		<line number="63">
			<speaker></speaker>
			<text></text>
		</line>
		<line number="64">
			<speaker></speaker>
			<text></text>
		</line>
		<line number="65">
			<speaker></speaker>
			<text></text>
		</line>
		<line number="66">
			<speaker></speaker>
			<text></text>
		</line>
		<line number="67">
			<speaker></speaker>
			<text></text>
		</line>
		<line number="68">
			<speaker></speaker>
			<text>ADV POTGIETER</text>
		</line>
		<line number="69">
			<speaker></speaker>
			<text>So het niks - niks verder gehoor van daai saak van Aubrey nie.</text>
		</line>
		<line number="70">
			<speaker></speaker>
			<text>ME KGATIWANE</text>
		</line>
		<line number="71">
			<speaker></speaker>
			<text>Niks - niks - niks.</text>
		</line>
		<line number="72">
			<speaker></speaker>
			<text>ADV POTGIETER</text>
		</line>
		<line number="73">
			<speaker></speaker>
			<text></text>
		</line>
		<line number="74">
			<speaker></speaker>
			<text>ME KGATIWANE</text>
		</line>
		<line number="75">
			<speaker></speaker>
			<text>Hy - ja.</text>
		</line>
		<line number="76">
			<speaker></speaker>
			<text>ADV POTGIETER</text>
		</line>
		<line number="77">
			<speaker></speaker>
			<text>Nou [tussenbeide]</text>
		</line>
		<line number="78">
			<speaker></speaker>
			<text>ME KGATIWANE</text>
		</line>
		<line number="79">
			<speaker></speaker>
			<text></text>
		</line>
		<line number="80">
			<speaker></speaker>
			<text>ADV POTGIETER</text>
		</line>
		<line number="81">
			<speaker></speaker>
			<text>O!</text>
		</line>
		<line number="82">
			<speaker></speaker>
			<text>ME KGATIWANE</text>
		</line>
		<line number="83">
			<speaker></speaker>
			<text>En hierdie hou hierso - want hierdie mond van hom het bietjie skeef geraak so, hierdie mond van hom is bietjie [tussenbeide]</text>
		</line>
		<line number="84">
			<speaker></speaker>
			<text>ADV POTGIETER</text>
		</line>
		<line number="85">
			<speaker></speaker>
			<text>So is dit nou nadat hy seergemaak gewees het wat hy nou so bietjie deurmekaar praat en die kop vat of vat nie party keer nie.</text>
		</line>
		<line number="86">
			<speaker></speaker>
			<text>ME KGATIWANE</text>
		</line>
		<line number="87">
			<speaker></speaker>
			<text>Ja wat hy nou so [tussenbeide]</text>
		</line>
		<line number="88">
			<speaker></speaker>
			<text>ADV POTGIETER</text>
		</line>
		<line number="89">
			<speaker></speaker>
			<text>Voor dit was hy all right gewees.</text>
		</line>
		<line number="90">
			<speaker></speaker>
			<text>ME KGATIWANE</text>
		</line>
		<line number="91">
			<speaker></speaker>
			<text>Hy was all right gewees.</text>
		</line>
		<line number="92">
			<speaker></speaker>
			<text>ADV POTGIETER</text>
		</line>
		<line number="93">
			<speaker></speaker>
			<text>Die bus mense wat daar ingekom het, is dit almal vreemde mense wat daar gekom het.</text>
		</line>
		<line number="94">
			<speaker></speaker>
			<text>ME KGATIWANE</text>
		</line>
		<line number="95">
			<speaker></speaker>
			<text>Ons - ons ken hulle nie - ons ken hulle nie - ons ken hulle nie, nie een van hulle ons van Griekwastad se mense daar ken vir hulle nie, dis maar net die mense wat vir hulle ingebring het, wat vir hulle ken.</text>
		</line>
		<line number="96">
			<speaker></speaker>
			<text>ADV POTGIETER</text>
		</line>
		<line number="97">
			<speaker></speaker>
			<text>Nou [tussenbeide]</text>
		</line>
		<line number="98">
			<speaker></speaker>
			<text>ME KGATIWANE</text>
		</line>
		<line number="99">
			<speaker></speaker>
			<text></text>
		</line>
		<line number="100">
			<speaker></speaker>
			<text>ADV POTGIETER</text>
		</line>
		<line number="101">
			<speaker></speaker>
			<text></text>
		</line>
		<line number="102">
			<speaker></speaker>
			<text>ME KGATIWANE</text>
		</line>
		<line number="103">
			<speaker></speaker>
			<text>Ja.</text>
		</line>
		<line number="104">
			<speaker></speaker>
			<text>ADV POTGIETER</text>
		</line>
		<line number="105">
			<speaker></speaker>
			<text>Behoort Aubrey aan enige een van daai twee kante - ondersteun hy enige een van die twee?</text>
		</line>
		<line number="106">
			<speaker></speaker>
			<text>ME KGATIWANE</text>
		</line>
		<line number="107">
			<speaker></speaker>
			<text>Hy - ja hy behoort aan die ANC.</text>
		</line>
		<line number="108">
			<speaker></speaker>
			<text>ADV POTGIETER</text>
		</line>
		<line number="109">
			<speaker></speaker>
			<text>Is hy by die ANC kant?</text>
		</line>
		<line number="110">
			<speaker></speaker>
			<text>ME KGATIWANE</text>
		</line>
		<line number="111">
			<speaker></speaker>
			<text>Ja.</text>
		</line>
		<line number="112">
			<speaker></speaker>
			<text>ADV POTGIETER</text>
		</line>
		<line number="113">
			<speaker></speaker>
			<text></text>
		</line>
		<line number="114">
			<speaker></speaker>
			<text>ME KGATIWANE</text>
		</line>
		<line number="115">
			<speaker></speaker>
			<text></text>
		</line>
		<line number="116">
			<speaker></speaker>
			<text>ADV POTGIETER</text>
		</line>
		<line number="117">
			<speaker></speaker>
			<text>IFP.</text>
		</line>
		<line number="118">
			<speaker></speaker>
			<text>ME KGATIWANE</text>
		</line>
		<line number="119">
			<speaker></speaker>
			<text>Ja.</text>
		</line>
		<line number="120">
			<speaker></speaker>
			<text>ADV POTGIETER</text>
		</line>
		<line number="121">
			<speaker></speaker>
			<text>Okay.</text>
		</line>
		<line number="122">
			<speaker></speaker>
			<text>ME KGATIWANE</text>
		</line>
		<line number="123">
			<speaker></speaker>
			<text>Nou by die - by die skippers van hulle - is INKATHA.</text>
		</line>
		<line number="124">
			<speaker></speaker>
			<text>ADV POTGIETER</text>
		</line>
		<line number="125">
			<speaker></speaker>
			<text>Okay - mevrou baie dankie - wat voel u moet ons doen vir u in verband met Aubrey se saak?</text>
		</line>
		<line number="126">
			<speaker></speaker>
			<text>ME KGATIWANE</text>
		</line>
		<line number="127">
			<speaker></speaker>
			<text></text>
		</line>
		<line number="128">
			<speaker></speaker>
			<text>ADV POTGIETER</text>
		</line>
		<line number="129">
			<speaker></speaker>
			<text></text>
		</line>
		<line number="130">
			<speaker></speaker>
			<text></text>
		</line>
	</lines>
</hearing>