hrvtrans HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATIONS, SUBMISSIONS QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS 1996-09-26 KLERKSDORP 4 MATHABISO KHIBA 01516 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=55395&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/hrvtrans/klerks/khiba.htm DR RANDERA Mrs Khiba, good morning, can you hear me? MRS KHIBA I can hear you, thank you. DR RANDERA Are you well? MRS KHIBA I am very well. DR RANDERA Mrs Khiba, there is nothing to be anxious or frightened about. MRS KHIBA I don't think I will be frightened, Sir. DR RANDERA I am glad to hear that. Mrs Khiba, before I ask you to stand to take the oath, will you please introduce the lady who is with you? MRS KHIBA This is Neria Mahala. DR RANDERA How is she related to you? MRS KHIBA This is my daughter. DR RANDERA I welcome your daughter, Mrs Mahala as well. Mrs Khiba, my name is Dr Randera and I am going to help you in telling your story. Can you please stand to take the oath. MATHABISO KHIBA (Duly sworn, states). DR RANDERA Thank you, Mrs Khiba, would you please sit down. Mrs Khiba, you come from Kanana township. MRS KHIBA That's correct. DR RANDERA Kanana is just outside Orkney, which isn't very far from here. It is a mining community. You have come to KLERKSDORP HEARING TRC/GAUTENG 2 M KHIBA tell us about the disappearance of your son. This happened in March 1986. Before you tell us about your son, can you please tell us something about yourself, how old are you, how many children do you have. MRS KHIBA I had ten children, five of them passed away and I have six daughters. Four of them are married and two of them are crippled. The other one can hardly walk and the other one is just a cripple, as I have mentioned. DR RANDERA How old are you, Mrs Khiba? MRS KHIBA 78 years. DR RANDERA Thank you. Is your husband still alive? MRS KHIBA He passed away a long time ago. DR RANDERA And what was your work before you retired? MRS KHIBA I was a domestic worker. DR RANDERA Mrs Khiba, please tell us in your own words what happened to your son, Sam Lethoba Khiba. MRS KHIBA It was on the 4th of March 1986, in the afternoon at about seven o'clock he left the house and he didn't come back. We only heard gun shots. Police were all over the place. There was gunfire the whole night. The next morning I went to the police station to report his disappearance. They didn't give me an answer. I searched for him all over, in the mortuaries, in the hospitals, until today I haven't seen him. A policeman came to me and he asked me where my son was. I said to him I do not know. He said to me give me his identity document. I gave him the ID and he left. After a few hours they came back, they were now two in number. He asked me again: has he not arrived as yet. I said no. DR RANDERA Did you not hear from the policeman again after KLERKSDORP HEARING TRC/GAUTENG 3 M KHIBA that? MRS KHIBA They never came back to me. They left forever, until today. DR RANDERA Mrs Khiba, tell us something about Sam Lethoba. How old was he, was he working when this happened? MRS KHIBA He was working at the municipal offices. He was the last born and I had my hope on him. I thought at this ripe age he would work for me. Nobody is taking care of me. I am depending on the pension money I get. DR RANDERA Was he married? MRS KHIBA No, he was not married. DR RANDERA Did he have any children? MRS KHIBA He didn't have any children. DR RANDERA How old was he when he disappeared? MRS KHIBA He was 21 years old. DR RANDERA Now you say that night in Kanana was gunfire and you could hear it all night. What was actually happening in the township that caused all these problems? MRS KHIBA I do not know, Sir, what was happening. It was a riot and the police were shooting at people. DR RANDERA Was your son involved with the youth congress or with the UDF or civic organisations in Kanana? MRS KHIBA No, he only played soccer. DR RANDERA When he left the house, that evening, it was seven o'clock at night, where was he going to? MRS KHIBA I do not know, he just went out, he didn't say where he was going to. DR RANDERA Did he go by himself or did some friends come to meet him? MRS KHIBA No, he didn't say anything to me. DR RANDERA Did he have many friends? KLERKSDORP HEARING TRC/GAUTENG 4 M KHIBA MRS KHIBA He had friends, yes. DR RANDERA And as part of your enquiries, did you find out from friends that had seen what had happened to him? MRS KHIBA I asked them and they said they did not know where he was. DR RANDERA What do you think happened? MRS KHIBA I think the people who were on te night duty on that same day, were De Kock and De Beer and De Kock took his identity document. De Beer was a special branch member. DR RANDERA In fact, that was my next question to you. The name of the people who came to your house, the policemen who took the ID document from you, was that Mr De Kock and Mr De Beer? MRS KHIBA No, De Kock was shooting at night, he was on night duty and the second one is a special branch, and he is the one who took his identity document. DR RANDERA Can I ask how you know that Mr De Kock was shooting at night? MRS KHIBA My daughter works at the police station and she knows the police who work duty, at night duty, because she is a police woman. DR RANDERA Can I then ask you, what was the names of the policemen who came to your house and took the ID document? MRS KHIBA It is De Beer. DR RANDERA Was that ID document ever returned to you? MRS KHIBA It was never brought back. DR RANDERA Mrs Khiba, I do not have any other questions. I would like to hand you over back to the chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Tom Manthata? MR MANTHATA Mrs Khiba, good morning. MRS KHIBA Good morning, Sir. KLERKSDORP HEARING TRC/GAUTENG 5 M KHIBA MR MANTHATA You said your daughter was a police woman? MRS KHIBA Yes, she is still a police woman. MR MANTHATA What assistance did she give the family with regard to the loss of your son? MRS KHIBA I do not know. She never said anything about the disappearance of her brother. She was disturbed. MR MANTHATA Now this shooting incident that took place the whole night, did it take place that only night or did it take place on many occasions? MRS KHIBA It took place on many occasions. MR MANTHATA Among the people, who was the target actually? MRS KHIBA Everybody that was passing was a target. MR MANTHATA Were there leaders in the township, leaders that we would say were responsible maybe? MRS KHIBA No, the leaders were present, but they didn't know anything about the shooting. MR MANTHATA Didn't they help to investigate the disappearance of some members? MRS KHIBA No, they didn't. MR MANTHATA Aren't they taking any iniative at this present moment to trace the disappearance of the people? MRS KHIBA No, they haven't tried it. MR MANTHATA Don't you think it is important to start an investigation, especially for the people who have been scared of asking for help? MRS KHIBA I am here before the Truth Commission to request them to help me trace my son, even if he is dead, I would be glad to bury his remains. MR MANTHATA I thank you. CHAIRPERSON Piet Meiring? PROF MEIRING Mamma Khiba, I just want to ask a few KLERKSDORP HEARING TRC/GAUTENG 6 M KHIBA questions about your own life. You told us that you are 78 years of age, that you had ten children, five of them are dead. Is that correct? MRS KHIBA That's correct. PROF MEIRING You say that you have two crippled children who are dependent upon you. MRS KHIBA That's correct. PROF MEIRING May I ask how old are the two children who are dependent upon you, the two crippled children? MRS KHIBA I don't remember their names, please forgive me, because I am not feeling very well. PROF MEIRING It doesn't matter at all. Are the two children able to work at all or do they do nothing? MRS KHIBA They are not working. The other one had a stroke and the other one cannot walk and he is mentally disturbed. PROF MEIRING I am very sorry to hear that. Are you living in your own house? MRS KHIBA Yes, that is my house, I bought it. PROF MEIRING And you live from your pension? MRS KHIBA I depend on the pension, Sir. PROF MEIRING Please forgive me for asking, how large is the pension, how much money do you get every month? MRS KHIBA It is R420,00. PROF MEIRING Thank you very much. Those are the questions I wanted to ask. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mrs Khiba, I note that you say that you are not feeling very well, so I will not keep you very much longer. But perhaps, just to try and get a complete picture of what happened, the ID document that was taken by the police, was that returned to you? KLERKSDORP HEARING TRC/GAUTENG 7 M KHIBA MRS KHIBA The identity document was never brought back. CHAIRPERSON Now did the police tell you what they wanted to do with the ID document? MRS KHIBA They never gave me an explanation. CHAIRPERSON Was the disappearance of your son ever put in the newspapers, was there any report about that in the newspaper? MRS KHIBA No, Sir. CHAIRPERSON And then just a final question. When did you realise, when did you realise that he was actually missing. Was it that same night or the following morning of a few days later or what? MRS KHIBA The same morning when we woke up, we realised that he was missing. CHAIRPERSON And if he disappeared, it must have been in Kanana, he didn't leave Kanana to your knowledge. MRS KHIBA I do not know. CHAIRPERSON Did you start enquiring around and looking for him the very morning that you realised that he was missing? MRS KHIBA We started investigating the same morning. We went all over the place. CHAIRPERSON And you couldn't get any idea of what happened or where he was or where he went to the previous evening? MRS KHIBA We didn't get any trace until today. CHAIRPERSON When he left the house, he didn't take anything with him, he just left like somebody who was going somewhere quickly. MRS KHIBA He left as if he was coming back, he didn't have anything with him. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Thank you, Mrs Khiba, thank you for your testimony. We hear quite a number of cases KLERKSDORP HEARING TRC/GAUTENG 8 M KHIBA relating to disappearances. It is the kind of case that presents a particular challenge to the Commission, because often it is very difficult to deal with a disappearance. Often it relates to an incident that happened some time back. In your case your son has been missing for at least the past ten years. That, of course, together with the scant information that one normally finds when we have to deal with cases of disappearance, puts a particular challenge to the Commission. However, because of the fact that the proceedings of this Commission is publicized very widely, there is always a prospect of some information being forthcoming. Simply as a result of the fact that the proceedings itself is heard by many people, and a lot of people take note of it. We also understand the anguish that goes with a disappearance for the family. In your case, particularly, you didn't have a very easy life. You are advanced in years. So it must be very, very difficult for you even now, to deal with the uncertainty to know exactly what happened. So we want to say to you that we do understand, and we feel with you. We understand that anguish. We have noted what you have said, why you came here today, in an attempt to get assistance, in an attempt to try and find out what happened to your son. We have noted that. We will see what could be done about the matter, but as I have said earlier, it is normally a very difficult kind of case to deal with, because of the fact that there is normally very little information to go on. But thank you once again for coming and good luck forward. Thank you. KLERKSDORP HEARING TRC/GAUTENG