hrvtrans HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATIONS, SUBMISSIONS QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS 1996-09-25 KLERKSDORP 3 KGASHOANE D MOTSAMAI 1541 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=55416&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/hrvtrans/klerks/motsamai.htm TAPE STARTS IN MIDDLE OF QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS MR MANTHATA All right. Let's proceed and find out how, in which way were people torturing you? What did they do to you? MR MOTSAMAI They arrested me and took me to the police station and they beat me on the face and then my face was swollen and then I was electrocuted. MR MANTHATA Where did they electrocute you on the body? MR MOTSAMAI It was for a long time, they put me in a sack and they electrocuted me. MR MANTHATA After that? MR MOTSAMAI After that they took me - after that they took me to Bougroep. MR MANTHATA What is Bougroep? MR MOTSAMAI It is a prison in Potchefstroom. MR MANTHATA Were you sentenced when you were sent to prison? MR MOTSAMAI I was there for six months. MR MANTHATA I was saying you were there for six months because you were sentenced? MR MOTSAMAI Yes, I was sentenced. KLERKSDORP HEARING TRC/GAUTENG 2 K D MOTSAMAI MR MANTHATA Did you appear in court? MR MOTSAMAI Yes, I did appear in court. MR MANTHATA Who represented you? MR MOTSAMAI I was represented by the lawyer, I have forgotten his name. I had a lawyer. MR MANTHATA You don't remember that lawyer? MR MOTSAMAI No, I don't remember that lawyer. MR MANTHATA Is there no paper which may remind you, make you remember the name of that person? MR MOTSAMAI I will ask when I arrive at home. MR MANTHATA After that six months what happened? MR MOTSAMAI Then I was released and then they brought me home. MR MANTHATA You were there when people were burning the hall? MR MOTSAMAI No, I was looking when the hall was burning. MR MANTHATA Were you the only one who was arrested by the police at that time at that place? MR MOTSAMAI Yes, I was the only, I was the first to be arrested at that time and they took me. MR MANTHATA When you are saying you are the first one, were others arrested thereafter? MR MOTSAMAI I am not sure, I don't know whether others were arrested. MR MANTHATA After you were beaten and before you went to court, did you see a doctor or were you taken to a hospital? MR MOTSAMAI No, I didn't see the doctor, I was not examined by the doctor. MR MANTHATA After, as you have come here to the Truth and Reconciliation Commission, what have you lost, which do you think, through the help of this Commission, we may try and KLERKSDORP HEARING TRC/GAUTENG 3 K D MOTSAMAI investigate to try to get that back? MR MOTSAMAI My body has been affected because of electrocution and I am unable to work and I am getting a subsistence allowance from the Government. MR MANTHATA When you say you are unemployed, which part of your body do you have a problem with? MR MOTSAMAI The body becomes painful. DR RANDERA Thank you, Mr Manthata. Prof Meiring? PROF MEIRING Mr Motsamai, just a few questions. You are 27 years old. Is that correct? MR MOTSAMAI Yes, Sir. PROF MEIRING Are you married? MR MOTSAMAI No, Sir. PROF MEIRING Do you have children dependent upon you? MR MOTSAMAI I have no children, sir. PROF MEIRING May I just come back to what Mr Manthata also asked about your work. Is it totally impossible for you to do any work? MR MOTSAMAI It is totally impossible, because I am undergoing treatment every month. Then I get injections and I am giving pills and monthly I get that subsistence allowance. PROF MEIRING Where do you get that treatment? MR MOTSAMAI At the Commissioner, Sir. PROF MEIRING Is that at a hospital or at a clinic? MR MOTSAMAI That is a clinic, Sir. PROF MEIRING It is a clinic. And is there a specific doctor that takes care of you, if we want to go and ask for your files? MR MOTSAMAI Yes, Sir, there is a doctor. PROF MEIRING What is the doctor's name? KLERKSDORP HEARING TRC/GAUTENG 4 K D MOTSAMAI MR MOTSAMAI Goskie. PROF MEIRING And is that in Potchefstroom? MR MOTSAMAI Yes, Sir, it is Potchefstroom. PROF MEIRING Thank you. A last question. When did you leave school, in which standard? MR MOTSAMAI I left school when I was doing Std 3 in 1993. PROF MEIRING Thank you very much. DR RANDERA Thank you Prof Meiring. Daniel, I just want you to relax, you are looking too tense, okay? Take your time in answering your questions. We don't want to frighten you, there is nothing to be frightened about. All right? Good, that's better. Daniel, I want to come back to 1985. What was happening in Ikhutseng township? I mean you have mentioned in your statement that there was the burning of the Kamathlape hall. What else was happening in Ikhutseng township at the time? MR MOTSAMAI People were fighting and people were throwing cars with stones. DR RANDERA (Speaker's mike not on). MR MOTSAMAI It was the comrades, they were fighting against the high rent. DR RANDERA So there was a rent increase, were there also local councillors in Ikhutseng that people were against? MR MOTSAMAI Yes, Sir, there were councillors and people didn't want that. DR RANDERA So were there also attacks on houses of councillors and policemen at the time, and police women? I know it is a long time ago, but you can take your time. MR MOTSAMAI Yes, councillors' houses were attacked. MR MOTSAMAI And you were 16 years old at the time. Is that KLERKSDORP HEARING TRC/GAUTENG 5 K D MOTSAMAI right? MR MOTSAMAI Yes. Yes, Sir. DR RANDERA 1969? MR MOTSAMAI Yes, that's true, Sir. DR RANDERA So the police, when they arrested you, they took you to the police station in Potchefstroom or in Ikhutseng? MR MOTSAMAI In Potchefstroom, Sir. DR RANDERA You mentioned the name of Pappa Kisibi. MR MOTSAMAI Yes. DR RANDERA As one of the people whom you recognised? He was a policeman, was he? MR MOTSAMAI Yes, he was a policeman. DR RANDERA Were there any other policemen that you recognised that were involved in your torture? MR MOTSAMAI I only remember Pappa Kisibi, Sir. DR RANDERA Now the torture period that you were subjected to, how long did that last for? MR MOTSAMAI I was tortured for a long time. They were beating me on the face and my face was swollen and I was electrocuted. DR RANDERA A long time, are you talking about hours or days? MR MOTSAMAI I am talking about hours, Sir. DR RANDERA Thank you. Then during that time or even after the torture, did you ask to be see by a doctor? MR MOTSAMAI Yes, I saw a doctor thereafter, Sir. DR RANDERA Do you remember the name of the doctor? MR MOTSAMAI The doctor? DR RANDERA Do you remember the name of the doctor? MR MOTSAMAI Yes, I remember the doctor, Sir. KLERKSDORP HEARING TRC/GAUTENG 6 K D MOTSAMAI DR RANDERA What was his name? MR MOTSAMAI Staftabu. DR RANDERA Daniel, you say that you spent six months in jail. Now between the arrest that took place, were you first released and then you had to go through a court case or did they just throw you into prison after that? MR MOTSAMAI I was released, then I was taken to court. DR RANDERA How long were you out of prison for, between that first arrest and then the court case? MR MOTSAMAI I think it is four days, Sir. DR RANDERA Was the court case immediately after that? MR MOTSAMAI Yes, there was a court case. DR RANDERA How many of you were charged in that court case? Who was with you? Were you the only one? MR MOTSAMAI I was alone, Sir. DR RANDERA And what was the charge? MR MOTSAMAI The charge was to tell why that hall was burnt. DR RANDERA So you were found guilty of actually burning the hall or public violence? MR MOTSAMAI I was convicted for public violence, Sir. DR RANDERA Daniel, is there anything else you want to say? MR MOTSAMAI There is nothing I want to add, Sir. DR RANDERA Can I ask you one more question, or two more questions, actually. The one is, were you a member of the Youth Congress at the time in Ikhutseng? I know you said you are a member of the ANC, were you also a member of the Youth Congress? You said you were a comrade. MR MOTSAMAI Yes, I was a member of the Youth Congress, Sir. DR RANDERA Daniel, you talked earlier on with Mr Manthata KLERKSDORP HEARING TRC/GAUTENG 7 K D MOTSAMAI and Prof Piet Meiring about the medical treatment that you are receiving on a monthly basis. Can you please tell us a little bit more about this medical treatment. Is it for psychological, psychiatric problems? MR MOTSAMAI It is physical treatment and psychological treatment, Sir. DR RANDERA After that time when you were actually tortured, have you had to spend time in hospital for these problems? MR MOTSAMAI I never slept in the hospital, but I went to the hospital later. DR RANDERA What did you spend time in hospital for? MR MOTSAMAI For them, after the torture and electrocution, Sir. MR MANTHATA I didn't know when I was talking with you, that maybe you were frightened. Is that so? Because I asked you in regard to the doctor. That after the torture, did you go to the doctor. Then you said no. MR MOTSAMAI I didn't go immediately. I sat for some days and then thereafter I went to the doctor. MR MANTHATA Then when I asked you who the doctor is, you couldn't remember the doctor, but now when Dr Randera asked you about the doctor, then you come with the name, then you said it is Thabo. That is why I am asking you that if you were frightened when I was first talking to you? MR MOTSAMAI No, I was not frightened. MR MANTHATA Did you just forget? MR MOTSAMAI Yes, I just forgot some other issues. MR MANTHATA Thank you. DR RANDERA Daniel, I would like to thank you for coming here today. We have listened to your story. We - I would KLERKSDORP HEARING TRC/GAUTENG 8 K D MOTSAMAI also like to note, I think - and I speak now as a professional medical person, I think that you need to speak to our people from the reparation and rehabilitation committee especially, so that we can give you whatever assistance that is possible, but we will make further enquriies on what you have told us today and we will come back to you. Thank you very much for coming. KLERKSDORP HEARING TRC/GAUTENG