hrvtrans HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATIONS, SUBMISSIONS QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS 1996-09-23 KLERKSDORP 1 JACOB MOTSAU 01337 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=55417&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/hrvtrans/klerks/motsau.htm CHAIRPERSON Mr Jacob Motsau. Order, please! Order, please! Tomorrow, maybe people from Motesane would be able to put up a stage so that those at the back should see clearly those who are giving evidence. DR RANDERA Mr Mosau, good afternoon. Mr MOsau, you are accompanied by a gentleman on your right-hand side. Could you please introduce him to us. MR MOTSAU That's my brother, Siwile Motsau is the one who is the one who is elder to me. DR RANDERA Mr Motsau, you are coming to tell us about yourself and what happened to you in 1986. Commissioner Potgieter is going to be helping you. Could you please stand to take the oath. JACOB MOTSAU (Duly sworn, states). ADV POTGIETER Thank you, Dr Randera. Good afternoon again, Mr Motsau. Welcome here. Your evidence relates to an incident that happened on the 5th of April of 1986, when you were shot and which resulted in your present condition of being disabled. Now before we talk about that, perhaps just a little bit of your personal circumstances. We have your date of birth as the 17th of April of 1956. Is that correct? MR MOTSAU Yes, Sir. KLERKSDORP HEARING TRC/GAUTENG 2 MR MOTSAU ADV POTGIETER And you are married? MR MOTSAU Yes, Sir. ADV POTGIETER Any dependants, any children? MR MOTSAU The one who is with his mother. I am just looking after my brother, he is not working. So the money, the disability allowance that I get, I support my wife. I don't have money to buy a wheelchair. Wherever I go I have problems. When I go out of the gate, when I go to town and when I go out, I have got to be accompanied by somebody. I spend more because I am paying for two people. ADV POTGIETER Are you in receipt of a disability grant? Is that correct, State disability grant. MR MOTSAU I get disability funds, yes. ADV POTGIETER Now let's talk a bit more about the actual shooting incident. It happened, as we have said, on the 5th of April 1986. In fact, it seems a few days before your birthday. Your birthday is on the 17th of April. MR MOTSAU Yes, Sir. ADV POTGIETER Yes? MR MOTSAU It was on the 5th of April, it was about quarter to eight, I was from my sister's house going to my house. I heard people singing and shooting. I was on my way home. When I was on my way home, I saw people, among them Bennet Matshaba, there were two having guns. Then they pointed with that gun. Then I turned back, I took another street. Then they shot me at the back just on the spine. The other one went under my arm-pit and it is still there. Thereafter, where I fell, my brother came to pick me up. When he was coming to pick me up, they said leave that person, otherwise we are going to shoot you again. Then he said shoot me, because he used to - then he picked me up. KLERKSDORP HEARING TRC/GAUTENG 3 MR MOTSAU Then we jumped some fences. Then we went to the taxis. On our way out of the location, we met one of these police vans. Then they stopped the taxi which we were in. Inside that van there were soldiers. Then they told the taxi driver to stop. Then they said where are you going. Then the driver said we are going to the hospital. Then they said why are you going to the hospital? Then he said I am taking this person to the hospital because he is shot. They said "shit", take him out and put him in the van. Then those people who were in the taxi they took me to that police van or military van. When we arrived at the police station then they said those people who were in that van should take me out into the police station. When we arrived there we made me sleep on the waiting bench. There was somebody who was sleeping on that bench. I didn't look at that person's face and he was dead and they made me sleep next to him and they were pointing with those guns at me. They said why don't you die. Then anyone would say, they would kick me and then point with guns, and they would say close your eyes. I didn't want to close my eyes. Then I just said let them shoot me and finish me. Thereafter, I think the station commander who was the leader of that police station at the time, said to them take the dead one to another place. Then they moved me. Then I see that that person that I was sleeping next to was dead. Then I could see the pins were opening, then I could see that this person is being thrown. At that time I was crying inside. The one who was in charge said this one seems to still have some strength, take him to the hospital. Then when the ambulance came they put on some drips and KLERKSDORP HEARING TRC/GAUTENG 4 MR MOTSAU took me to the hospital. Inside that ambulance, one of them was escorting me, it was a soldier with a big gun and sitting with me in the ambulance, up to the hospital. When we arrived there, that soldier went back with the ambulance. Then I was admitted to the hospital. Then the doctor examined me. He said I will not be able to walk again for the rest of my life, I will be using a wheelchair for the rest of my life, but my hands are strong. Thereafter, whilst I was still in the hospital, when my relatives were visiting me, they said to me the police are not making them to sleep, they are asking where I am, they are looking for me. Another time the doctor said to me - I was having some few months in the hospital and the doctor said I am strong, I may go home and start to practise to use the wheelchair. On a Friday I went home. Then I was supposed to come back on the Monday. I didn't go back on the Monday, I came back on the Sunday. The Sunday evening the police came looking for me, because they saw that I was at home. They came three or four times. When I was discharged from the hospital I was working and where I was working at Cash 'n Carry, the company, I was using a wheelchair at work. I made a statement to Brady & Roelfs. Then I made a civil claim against the person who shot me. They gave me Cyril Silent to be my lawyer. Then he was saying he is making a claim for R300 000,00. Even up to now I don't know what happened, I don't know where to find him. I was still working. Then this Bennet Matshaba came to me again with another White man, and they told me that they are coming to pick me KLERKSDORP HEARING TRC/GAUTENG 5 MR MOTSAU up to make a statement because I have been arrested, because I am the leader of the comrades. I was arriving about five metres, leading 500 people. I refuted that because I am not going, I will not go with you, I will come tomorrow, tell me where I should go. They said I should come to the magistrate's courts and they told me the room number. Then I came first to Brady, then I met Cyril. Then he said I should go, I must not be afraid. When I arrived there, I came back from Cyril, and then I know that they said I should not make a statement. But they told me, showed me the whole statement which had been written. During that case they said I was convicted for two years. The magistrate said he knows that I have made a civil claim against the State, but he sentenced me for two years. After I came out of prison - I spent two months in prison. Thereafter I tried to find out where can I get help. Up to now I tried by all means, I couldnt' find help anywhere. ADV POTGIETER I would just like to ask a few questions to get more details about the incident and the evidence that you gave. Where did the shooting incident happen, where were you shot? In which street was it, in which township? MR MOTSAU It happened at Kanana, at Bennet Matshaba Street. Bennet Matshaba was in his yard, under the trees. ADV POTGIETER What was the situation like in the Kanana Township at that stage? MR MOTSAU It was not peaceful. I could hear some songs and gun shots. ADV POTGIETER Was there unrest in the township, riots, as they said? KLERKSDORP HEARING TRC/GAUTENG 6 MR MOTSAU MR MOTSAU Yes, it was full of riots. ADV POTGIETER You were saying that you were on your way home. Were you alone? MR MOTSAU I was going home, I was from work, but I passed somewhere. I used to say somewhere with my family in the afternoon. ADV POTGIETER Do I understand you correctly, there was nobody else with you when you were shot, you were on your own. MR MOTSAU I was alone, Sir. ADV POTGIETER Now this Bennet Matshaba that you referred to, what does he do, what kind of work? MR MOTSAU He is a policeman, Sir. ADV POTGIETER Where, in Orkney? MR MOTSAU Yes, Sir. MR MOTSAU Is he still a policeman there? MR MOTSAU He is still a policeman, Sir. ADV POTGIETER He was one of the persons that shot you. Do you know who was with him, who else was involved? MR MOTSAU I heard him saying this is Switch, because my football name is Switch, because I was popular with that name when I was playing football. ADV POTGIETER Was he with other policemen when he shot you? MR MOTSAU I saw, it seems there were two people in the yard, but there were not many people. ADV POTGIETER And you were shot twice. Is that correct? MR MOTSAU I was shot twice, Sir, on the spinal chord and then just under my arm-pit and then I could even feel it on my chest. The doctor's report says it is still where it was. KLERKSDORP HEARING TRC/GAUTENG 7 MR MOTSAU ADV POTGIETER Were you shot from behind? MR MOTSAU Yes, Sir. ADV POTGIETER I see that you did institute a claim against the State, is it against Matshaba or against the Minister of Safety and Security, or Law and Order, as he was called at that stage. MR MOTSAU I was claiming against Matshaba, Sir, because that is the one I saw shooting me. ADV POTGIETER And you say you don't know what happened to that claim, although you saw an attorney. MR MOTSAU Up to now I don't know what is happening about that case. ADV POTGIETER Haven't you heard from this attorney? MR MOTSAU Can you repeat the question, Sir? ADV POTGIETER When last have you had contact with the attorney that was doing the claim for you, when last did you hear from that person? MR MOTSAU I last saw him in court in 1987, Sir, on the 14th of January. Thereafter, when I came back from prison, I went to South African Council of Churches. Then they said it doesn't help because they cannot help me and then the days have expired. ADV POTGIETER Just to get clarity on that issue. Before you were charged criminally yourself, you went to see an attorney, is that correct, to institute a claim for you against Matshaba? MR MOTSAU I made a civil claim first, whilst I was still in the hospital I made a case. When they realised that I am discharged and I am working, then they heard that I made a civil claim. Then they made a case against me, long before I made my own case. The magistrate said to them he heard KLERKSDORP HEARING TRC/GAUTENG 8 MR MOTSAU that, he knows that I have made a civil claim, but he has convicted me for two years, then the civil case will see it thereafter. ADV POTGIETER For what charge did he convict you and sentence you to two years? MR MOTSAU They were saying I was the leader of the comrades on that day and that I was leading the 500 people, five metres away from leading a group of 500 people. ADV POTGIETER Is that all that they told you? MR MOTSAU That is the thing which has made them to arrest and convict me for two years. ADV POTGIETER I just want to try and finally clarify this issue of your claim. If the Commission wants to find out what has happened to the civil claim of yours, where should we go to, who should we contact? MR MOTSAU My home address is the one which I have written on my written statement, I am still staying in Kanana at the above-mentioned address. I am not a person who goes a distance away from home. ADV POTGIETER If we want to find out from the person or persons who were handling your claim, what has happened, who should we go to, who should we contact? Is it a firm of attorneys or who is it? MR MOTSAU This Cyril Silent, since I came back from court, I don't know where he is. Even up to now I don't know where he is staying and I even gave up because I was wasting my money looking for him. ADV POTGIETER I think we can follow that up. I just want to also just round off the shooting incident itself. Before you were shot, were you given any warnings or did this Matshaba say anything to you? KLERKSDORP HEARING TRC/GAUTENG 9 MR MOTSAU MR MOTSAU He didn't give me a warning and we were not, I was not cross with him or him with me. ADV POTGIETER After you were shot, you actually fell down, I believe. You couldn't move any further. Is that correct? MR MOTSAU When I was shot I was not able to wake up until my brother came to pick me up, to take me to the taxi. ADV POTGIETER There was no attempt to arrest you there on the scene, Matshaba didn't come and try to arrest you after you fell down and you were lying in the street. MR MOTSAU He was not trying to arrest me, but he was threatening my brother. When my brother came to pick me up he said he must leave me there otherwise he will shoot me. ADV POTGIETER Just finally, Mr Motsau, are you still receiving any medical attention, any medical treatment, presently? MR MOTSAU I am going to the government doctor at Kanane and at other times I go to Sebong Hospital. ADV POTGIETER You have been receiving medical attention from 1986, from the time when you were shot, right up to the present? MR MOTSAU After I was injured, I was a cripple and I was living under the medical attention all the time. ADV POTGIETER Than kyou, Mr Motsau. I will hand you back to the Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON We thank you, Mr Motsau. DR RANDERA Mr Motsau, I have got two questions. You say that when you were charged and sentenced they accused you of being a leader of the comrades. Were you in fact a leader of the comrades, were you involved in any political organisation, did you hold any position in Kanane township at the time? KLERKSDORP HEARING TRC/GAUTENG 10 MR MOTSAU MR MOTSAU I was nothing in politics, and I was working. It was a Satuday, I came back from work. When I came back from the hospital in 1989, I said it is better that I join the ANC. DR RANDERA Where did you work at the time? MR MOTSAU I was working at Cash & Carry as a caddy. DR RANDERA I just want to understand again this sentencing that took place. How long after the shooting was the court case? MR MOTSAU They took me in April, I was shot in April and then in January, on the 14th, 1987, I was convicted in court. DR RANDERA Let me understand again, how did you manage as someone who was disabled and paralysed, both your legs are paralysed, in prison for that time? Were there any special services provided for you as a disabled person? MR MOTSAU There was no special attention in prison. I was just like one of the other prisoners and they were even saying if I don't work or if I don't clean, they are not going to give me food. Then I said to them I will tell my relatives to bring me food or I will go and tell my lawyer about the situation. DR RANDERA Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Prof Meiring? PROF MEIRING Mr Motsau, only two short questions. I thought I heard you say that you do not have a wheelchair of your own. You couldn't afford that. Is that true, is the wheelchair you are using not your own, do you still need one? MR MOTSAU This wheelchair is broken. Since I bought in 1989 it is six years that I have been using it. It is now KLERKSDORP HEARING TRC/GAUTENG 11 MR MOTSAU broken. I don't have money to buy another one. My subsistence allowance is too little. PROF MEIRING Thank you for that. And the last question, you said that you are still strong, your hands are strong. Are you able to work, even though you are a disabled person, are you able to do something for your own upkeep? MR MOTSAU With my hands I can work, but I should not sit down for a long time, I have got to stretch my legs all the time, because if I sit like this for a long time, my legs become swollen and I have a pain on my hip. PROF MEIRING (Speaker's mike not on) ... for you, what are you doing with your hands? MR MOTSAU I am doing nothing, Sir, in the meantime. PROF MEIRING Thank you. CHAIRPERSON We thank you. We sympathise with you with your problems. We are saying if a person has been crippled and not doing anything, it is a lie. Many people used to say I was not doing anything. MR MOTSAU Then somebody just pointed at me with a gun and when I turned then he shot me. They didn't agree that that is the truth. CHAIRPERSON Then again, you are crippled and you go to prison again for 22 months. MS SOOKA It is unbelievable. CHAIRPERSON Then they it seems it is not the truth what you are saying. What can we say? We are here to see the truth about all what happened during those dark days. So that we should be able to work together to help each other in a country. So that these kind of things should never happen again. Even the victims, the nation should be able to say this is something we give you, that we sympathise KLERKSDORP HEARING TRC/GAUTENG 12 MR MOTSAU with you. There is not much we can do. Even now when we hear you saying about the wheelchair. Maybe if there will be somebody who would say we will try to help you so that you should get a new wheelchair which is better than the one you have. We will just hope and we will try to help you all, that God should be the one who should be your Protector. Then to give you the holy ointment in your broken heart, in the broken spirits. We thank you. KLERKSDORP HEARING TRC/GAUTENG