hrvtrans HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATIONS, SUBMISSIONS QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS 1996-09-24 KLERKSDORP 2 LYDIA MOSEBI NTHOROANE 01528 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=55421&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/hrvtrans/klerks/nthoroan.htm CHAIRPERSON ... it is from this afternoon's story, nonetheless, many of the incidents that we have seen that took place in a lot of the towns that we are involved with, took place in this little place as well. As you are going to tell us, your son was killed during that period. Mrs Nthoroane, are you okay? MS SOOKA Can I ask people please to keep quiet. DR RANDERA Okay. Mrs Nthoroane, I please want you to stand to take the oath and then I will hand over to Commissioner Potgieter, who is going to help you. LYDIA MOSEBI NTHOROANE (Duly sworn, states). DR RANDERA Thank you, ma'am. ADV POTGIETER Thank you to our esteemed team leader. Good afternoon, Mrs Nthoroane. We realise that although this incident happened in 1989, some years ago, it still is obviously quite a difficult and a painful experience for you. I would like you to tell the story so that we can take note of it. It concerns your late son, Pule Caiphus Nthoroane, who died on the 19th of November 1989. Now before we talk about the incident, perhaps you can just tell us a little bit about Pule, the deceased. How old was he in 1989 when he died and what was he doing? Was he employed, was he KLERKSDORP HEARING TRC/GAUTENG 2 L M NTHOROANE married, has he got children, a wife, or what was his position? Would you like to tell us. MRS NTHOROANE He was a student only in 1986, when he was beaten by the police. Then when he left school he went to the mines where he said he wanted to work. He went only for five months. Then because they had beaten him at Makwassie, they even cut one of the veins on the top of the head. When he arrived at the hospital, he usually heard a sound in he head, and he slept at the hospital, Westvaal Hospital. He only stayed on the system the 17th, then he went back to the mine. He didn't work at the mine. Then he said he must work for night shift. Then because of the head problem he went to Leeudoringstad. That is where they tortured and killed him. Many things I didn't hear then because I didn't know who did that. The person who brought the messages is the person who is there, because he was staying at Leeudoringstad, he is the person who can explain. What I said, I only told them, is that they have just said they have saved my son. Then I said if they have received my son in the cell, what happened that he should be killed. He has died. They did the post-mortem. No member of the family was there. They even took him out of Leeudoringstad, they even took him to the Avbob mortuary. The person who can give evidence is Herbert Nthoroane. Still, we were waiting. Then they came back to me, after a week. Then they sent William Tshogo, that I should sign papers. Then I said I couldn't sign papers because I didn't know what I am signing for. Then he left. They came back from Leeudoringstad again that I should sign a paper, because I am a witness. Then I said how can I be a witness, after you have killed my son, not knowing the whole KLERKSDORP HEARING TRC/GAUTENG 3 L M NTHOROANE incidence what happened. MR POTGIETER Let me just ask a few questions to understand what actually happened. Now there were two incidents of assault. There was one in 1986 and then there was the one in 1989. MRS NTHOROANE 1986 and 1989. MR POTGIETER Now 1986, let's talk about that first. He was assaulted by the police. Is that correct? MRS NTHOROANE Yes, he was beaten by the police, he was hit on the head. He didn't die in 1986, he died in 1989. They beat him on top of the head. ADV POTGIETER And as a result of that assault, he suffered an injury to his head. In fact, one of his veins was damaged. MRS NTHOROANE Yes. ADV POTGIETER And I assume that injury was giving him problems right through, from 1986 onwards. MRS NTHOROANE Yes. ADV POTGIETER Now in respect of that 1986 assault, where did it happen, where did the police beat him? Was it at the police station or where? MRS NTHOROANE They were beating him as they were singing. As they were singing, he was among the group which was singing and which was arrested in 1986. ADV POTGIETER So when he was assaulted, where was he, was he in the township or was he at the police station or where was he? MRS NTHOROANE He was at home, he was beaten at home. Because we could find the pool of blood in one of the houses. ADV POTGIETER And as a result of that assault and injury KLERKSDORP HEARING TRC/GAUTENG 4 L M NTHOROANE he was in hospital for about two weeks, at Westvaal Hospital. Is that correct? MRS NTHOROANE In Westvaal he went thereafter, he stayed three weeks. ADV POTGIETER Three weeks, okay. And there was a witness to that incident, that assault, a person, you have given the name in the written statement that you gave, a Mr Mosime, is that correct? MRS NTHOROANE Yes, that's the one that was working with them in the comrade activities. ADV POTGIETER He was the one that saw what happened in the 1986 incident? MRS NTHOROANE Yes, Sir. ADV POTGIETER Good. And then there was the second assault which happened on the 19th of November of 1989. Is that correct? MRS NTHOROANE It is at Leeudoringstad, I was not there. ADV POTGIETER Now I am trying just to ascertain what you know about this second incident. The ... (intervention). MRS NTHOROANE At the second assault, I don't know anything because I have no evidence. We saw blood running from the rank to the cell. They didn't give us any light of what had killed him, but they just said he was vomiting from the mouth. ADV POTGIETER And there was no witness of this assault of 1989. Is that correct? MRS NTHOROANE He is there, it was somebody from the Sudi family. The father says he doesn't know where they went. They were arrested in cell number two. He said in the morning at six o'clock, the police opened the doors and said they should leave. When they went into the location, they KLERKSDORP HEARING TRC/GAUTENG 5 L M NTHOROANE heard that somebody has died in one of the cells. We don't get him, we don't know where he went. He is the one that saw everything near the police station. ADV POTGIETER Now in respect of the 1989 incident, what explanation did the police give to you about the cause of his death of the police death? MRS NTHOROANE They didn't explain anything to me. They just said to me he drank some drug. They said just they should give me an evidence to see. They didn't give me any written statement. When I wanted - and a declaration. They just left us there. They didn't, they denied to tell us the truth of what is the cause of the death of my son. ADV POTGIETER So they tried to tell you on the second occasion in 1989 that he died as a result of drinking something? MRS NTHOROANE Yes, they said he has drunk a strong liquor. When they looked at the mortuary, we could see that a trace of blood from the nose. MRS NTHOROANE So from what you saw at the mortuary, it appeared that he was actually assaulted, he was bleeding or he had bled. MRS NTHOROANE Yes, we could see that he was hurt on the head. ADV POTGIETER So did you believe this story that the police were telling that he died because he was drinking? MRS NTHOROANE I told them that my child didn't drink hot stuff, he was drinking only beer. But when he came back from home he was no more drinking. Usually he held his head and said his head is giving him problems. ADV POTGIETER How old was Nthoroane when he died? MRS NTHOROANE He was 25 years old. KLERKSDORP HEARING TRC/GAUTENG 6 L M NTHOROANE ADV POTGIETER And was he still working at the mine? MRS NTHOROANE Yes, he was still working at the mine, at No 8, Vaal Reefs. ADV POTGIETER Was he working for the home? MRS NTHOROANE That is the child who was supporting us, he was the only one at home. ADV POTGIETER Did he have any children of his own? MRS NTHOROANE Yes, he has only one child. ADV POTGIETER What is it, is it a son or a daughter? MRS NTHOROANE It is a daughter. ADV POTGIETER And what is her age? MRS NTHOROANE She is 17 years old, Sir. ADV POTGIETER Now your late son was involved, politically involved, is that correct? MRS NTHOROANE No, Sir, he didn't know anything, but when people were singing he went there to join them, because political activities were not popular in our area. ADV POTGIETER Why do you think that he was assaulted and killed, both assaulted in 1986 by the police and subsequently in 1989? MRS NTHOROANE At Leeudoringstad, when they hit him, they hit him on the head, because on the body we didn't see traces of being assaulted, he was complaining about the head. Even the doctor who did the post-mortem didn't give us any evidence. ADV POTGIETER But why do you think he was assaulted, for what reason? MRS NTHOROANE I don't understand the reasons, because he was not active in politics. I think it is just because he was affected mentally. He was mentally disturbed at that time. Even Dr Selwyn, after that, said one of the veins has KLERKSDORP HEARING TRC/GAUTENG 7 L M NTHOROANE been injured. ADV POTGIETER Perhaps just to try and clarify this completely, do you think that his assault and his death had anything to do with politics at all? MRS NTHOROANE No, Sir. Because during that time the comrades were just singing at that time when they were beaten. They were singing on the streets. ADV POTGIETER Was there an inquest or a court case about his death? MRS NTHOROANE No, Sir. ADV POTGIETER Did the police give you any information about investigating the incident, investigating the death at all? MRS NTHOROANE No, Sir. ADV POTGIETER So they have never given you a report on what they know about the case or how far they had gone to look into the incident? MRS NTHOROANE They didn't tell me anything. Even the doctor didn't give me any information. This Dr Erasmus, when we went to ask him he didn't give us anything. He just said under investigation, Sir. ADV POTGIETER Mrs Nthoroane, is there anything else you would like to tell us in connection with the death of Pule, before I conclude? MRS NTHOROANE In regard to this incident, is what made me very hurt, when Herbert took us to Leeudoringstad, when we were asking them about the post-mortem, they didn't explain anything to us. They just brought the tackies and the belt, not the trousers, it had disappeared. I asked them what made the clothes of my son to be wet, then which means - I told them which means you have washed the tackies, because KLERKSDORP HEARING TRC/GAUTENG 8 L M NTHOROANE they were bloody. Then we took to AVBOB. So both of them were not telling us any information about the causes of death. The person who was there, who knows is Rudolph Sipimati, who has recently died. He was shameful because he didn't want to look us in the eyes, because he was there. ADV POTGIETER This Rudolph that died, was he a policeman or what was he? MRS NTHOROANE He was a policeman. ADV POTGIETER Mrs Nthoroane, we have noted everything that you have said. I don't have any further questions, I am going to hand back to the Chairperson. I thank you. DR RANDERA Mamma, I just want to ask two questions. One, you say a post-mortem was done. What did they say on the death certificate was the cause of death? MRS NTHOROANE They didn't write anything, they just write under investigation. I have that letter in my bag. They just wrote under investigation. DR RANDERA We would appreciate it if we can have a copy of that, if our statement-takers can just make a copy of that. Thank you very much. My second question is, what you have just said just now to Commissioner Potgieter, that you thought your son was mentally disturbed after his first assault. Is that right, is that what you said? MRS NTHOROANE Yes, Sir. DR RANDERA But he was still managing to hold a job at the mines. MRS NTHOROANE Yes, Sir. DR RANDERA Thank you. PROF MEIRING Mrs Nthoroane, just two questions. You are already 60 years of age. Do you still have to work? KLERKSDORP HEARING TRC/GAUTENG 9 L M NTHOROANE MRS NTHOROANE I am not working, I am sick. PROF MEIRING Who looks after your financial needs every month? MRS NTHOROANE My husband doesn't work also, but my eldest daughter is the one who is working and supporting us. ADV POTGIETER Mrs Nthoroane, then you said there was a child of seven years old, your son's child. Who looks after that child? MRS NTHOROANE I am the only one who is looking after her and that after I am not working. I just give her what I have. She doesn't get proper care. PROF MEIRING Thank you very much. MS SOOKA Mamma, can I just ask you, although you have said that your son was not involved in any political activity, you do say that he worked at Vaal Reef Mines. Was he a shop steward? MRS NTHOROANE No, he was not a member. MS SOOKA Was he a member of the union? MRS NTHOROANE He hasn't joined yet at that time. He worked only for five months. MS SOOKA You do say in your statement that he was actively involved in politics. Now I am not quite sure if I heard you tell Adv Potgieter that he was not involved. Could you just clear that for me? MRS NTHOROANE They were just singing, but he was not a member. He was not a person who likes political activity, he is not a person who likes political organisations. MS SOOKA Mamma, you also say that you went to Dr Erasmus. Was Dr Erasmus your doctor or was he the district surgeon who performed the post-mortem? MRS NTHOROANE He is a doctor at Leeudoringstad, he is not KLERKSDORP HEARING TRC/GAUTENG 10 L M NTHOROANE from Makwassie but he is from Leeudoringstad. MS SOOKA Who sent you to him? MRS NTHOROANE The police sent me to him for a certificate. Then he denied to give me the death certificate and then he said I should go and ask it from the police. MS SOOKA Were you ever called to come to court, Mamma by the police? MRS NTHOROANE No, Sir. MS SOOKA So you don't, and have you yourself ever consulted a lawyer to find out what actually happened? MRS NTHOROANE I was not able because after the death of my son I was ill and they were just coming to me with forms for me to sign, but I denied. MS SOOKA Thank you, Mamma. We have noted all that you have given us. We would appreciate if you could make sure that before you leave today our statement-takers make copies of all the documents that you have. It is a horrible story and needs some kind of investigation. We will hand this matter over to our unit and will come back to you. Thank you for coming today. KLERKSDORP HEARING TRC/GAUTENG y