hrvtrans 1 D B MOSHANI, HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATIONS, SUBMISSIONS QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS 1996-11-12 KRUGERSDORP 2 D B MOSHANI https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=55444&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/hrvtrans/krugers/moshani.htm CHAIRPERSON Is Moshani in? DR RANDERA Yes. CHAIRPERSON Number three. DR RANDERA Yes. Vries is out, okay. CHAIRPERSON Okay. We are going to call our next witness, Moshani, Barry Daniel Moshani. You do not mind doing the oath and leading as well? DR RANDERA Can I, yes, okay that is fine. Mr Moshani, good morning. MR MOSHANI Good morning. DR RANDERA I trust you are refreshed after the tea break. I want you to relax, take your time, but before we get into your story, which is taken us to December 1985. It is related to the death of your brother, Swelitsha Wiseman Dambusa by the South African Police and related very much to what happens in this part of our country which is the mining area. An involvement of miners and management at the time. Can you please stand to take the oath first? MR MOSHANI (Duly sworn in, states). DR RANDERA Thank you Mr Moshani you can sit down. Before you get into the story perhaps you can just tell us about yourself and your brother. How big was your family, what was his work, how old was he at the time of his death? MR MOSHANI At my home we were six. My elder brother as KRUGERSDORP HEARING TRC/GAUTENG 2 D B MOSHANI well as my sister and my mother. He is the one who was working at that time at the Randfontein mine. At the time I was still looking for a job. Then in November 1985 my brother came to me in Mohlakeng location and he told me that I should go home and I wanted to know from him as to how I should go back because my wife at the time was working. He said to me there were riots and boycotts so I should go back home. He offered my money, but I did not got, but at the end of November, it was about the 30th. He gave me some more money to go back home. He told me that if I did not want to go back home, he would go home himself. Then I told my wife that my brother said I should go home and I left my children with my wife. I stayed for about a week at home. On the second week of my stay I just had a gut feeling that I should not run my usual road work because I was also doing road work. Then during the week my uncle came. He had come to tell us bad news, that my brother had died and I wanted to find out as to what had happened. He told me that there was a meeting at the Carletonville mine and when they went back to the compound to address a certain meeting that was going to be held. According to his statement he told me that when this meeting was being addressed there were certain people who were calling for the closure of a certain bottle store which was built within the mine. As they were still talking and marching outside to the bottle store, there is a certain white person by the name of Piet Rademeyer as well as policemen who came. They accosted my brother and the rest of the group. Apparently an argument took place that led to him having a fight with a white policeman. My brother was apparently fighting for the policeman's gun. There was a KRUGERSDORP HEARING TRC/GAUTENG 3 D B MOSHANI certain car that appeared and it him the white person and Rademeyer gave orders that my brother should be shot. He was shot on the spot. As I have come before this Commission it is because my brother had been shot and I was not working at that time. My brother was working. He is the one who was the breadwinner and he was looking after the family. He also has children with different women and I was supporting the children when I was still working. Now that he is deceased I came back to look for a job in Johannesburg and I, ultimately, got a job in Randfontein. When I got this job in Randfontein I was playing sports. I played rugby in particular and I got injured, my spinal column in 1991. I was taken to the mine hospital where I was admitted and ever since then I have been in and out of the hospital. There was no particular treatment that they gave me except rubbing stuff and they treated me with some ice tubes. I went to a certain Dr Morula who conducted an X-ray and told me that I should undergo an operation. I was sent to Lesedi Private Clinic to undergo the operation. When I came back from the operation I was no longer fit to work in that particular department because now my health had changed and my health status was not satisfactory. The mine staff or the mine personnel dismissed me because they said there was no longer a job for me. Now I want this Commission to investigate as to why Rademeyer shot my brother because today I have got my own kids, but I cannot send money home because I am not working. My wife is working. My story is as short as that. DR RANDERA Mr Moshani, thank you very much. If I can just ask a few more questions. How old was your brother at KRUGERSDORP HEARING TRC/GAUTENG 4 D B MOSHANI the time of his death? MR MOSHANI At the time when he got shot I shall think he was. He was born in 1950. DR RANDERA So we are talking, okay, thank you. You have told us that he has two children. MR MOSHANI Yes. DR RANDERA How old are they? MR MOSHANI The other one was five years old at the time and the other one was still very young, but I am not sure how old she was. He was not married. DR RANDERA Now, you talk about home. Where is home? MR MOSHANI My home is in Alice, Ciskei. DR RANDERA Your brother was a member of the National Union of Mine Workers? MR MOSHANI Yes. DR RANDERA Now, this person called Rademeyer that you are talking about, was he a member of the police force or of the mine security? MR MOSHANI He was part of the management in the mine. DR RANDERA Were there other workers who were killed or injured on that day? MR MOSHANI Yes there were quite a lot of people who were shot on that particular day, but my brother is the only one who died. DR RANDERA The dispute at the mine, was it only around this bottle store or were there other issues that the workers were arguing about? INTERPRETER It seems the channel of the witness, the witnesses channel has not been set properly. It is causing confusion. DR RANDERA Sorry. KRUGERSDORP HEARING TRC/GAUTENG 5 D B MOSHANI INTERPRETER Xhosa is in channel three. DR RANDERA Can you just put channel three there? No. Mr Moshani, if you do not understand, come back to me. MR MOSHANI Okay. DR RANDERA Alright. I just want to ask the question again. The dispute that was taking place at the mine, this was at Carletonville mine, is that right? MR MOSHANI It was in Randfontein. DR RANDERA Randfontein? MR MOSHANI Randfontein, yes. DR RANDERA And the dispute, was it only about the bottle store or were there other issues? MR MOSHANI They wanted to close down the bottle store which was operating within the mine as well as a certain shop. DR RANDERA The workers wanted to close it down? MR MOSHANI That is correct. DR RANDERA And who actually shot your brother? You say Rademeyer gave the order, but who actually shot your brother? MR MOSHANI I will tell you what I was told. They said a certain policeman who was nearby was given the orders by Rademeyer. DR RANDERA Was there an inquest? MR MOSHANI There was absolutely none. DR RANDERA Did you approach the National Union of Mine Workers yourself? Did they conduct an inquiry? MR MOSHANI This union is the one that actually made attempts to conduct a research because the people at the mine did not want us to get my brother's body. They wanted the body to be burnt down. The National Union of Mine KRUGERSDORP HEARING TRC/GAUTENG 6 D B MOSHANI Workers helped me out with regard to getting the body back as well as sending the body home. DR RANDERA Did your family lay a charge at all? MR MOSHANI No, we did not lay any charge. DR RANDERA Mr Moshani, I do not have anymore questions. Perhaps my colleagues might have some other questions. MR MOSHANI Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Piet Meiring. PROF MEIRING Two questions I would like to ask. Maybe I did not hear properly. At the end, just now, you say that the National Union of Mine Workers did not want you to have the body. Was that wrong? MR MOSHANI No, it is not the National Union of Mine Workers. I am saying the police did not permit to give us the body. They said the body should be burnt. PROF MEIRING Thank you. Thank you for setting that straight. I just want to ask about the children. You were talking about the two children of your brother. They were very young at that stage. The one was five and the other one was a baby. Today the oldest one must be round about 16 years of age and the other one must be round about 11, 12. What are the two children doing at the moment? MR MOSHANI The eldest one is quite a sickly person. He is old, but he seems to be retarded. He is not developing quite like other children of his age. The other one is at school. PROF MEIRING And two different mothers? MR MOSHANI Yes. PROF MEIRING Where do they live? The mothers, where do the mothers live? MR MOSHANI The eldest one is staying at my mother's place. KRUGERSDORP HEARING TRC/GAUTENG 7 D B MOSHANI The other one is staying with his mother, where his mother is staying. PROF MEIRING Where is that? MR MOSHANI That is in Alice. PROF MEIRING Are they going to school, the two children? The first one is retarded, has he been to school? MR MOSHANI He has never been to school because he has been retarded ever since. The smallest one is the one who is at school. CHAIRPERSON Yasmin Sooka. MS SOOKA Mr Moshani, you say, I was not quite sure whether you told us about what your brother's occupation was in the National Union of Mines. Was he an office bearer at the mines? MR MOSHANI According to rumours he was a member. I think he was an office bearer, but I do not know his particular position because I was not there. MS SOOKA Was he a shop steward, do you think? MR MOSHANI I think so. MS SOOKA This meeting, you mentioned that your brother was the only one who was killed, but it seems, from what you have said, that the police shot on a whole number of mine workers. Do you know how many other people were injured in the same incident? MR MOSHANI According to what I heard is that he was shot with a proper bullet whereas the other ones were shot with pellets. He was shot with real bullets and that is why he was killed. The rest were shot with pellets. MS SOOKA Just one more question. I know that you might not know the answer to this. Who was actually running the shebeen and the shop? Was it the mine owners or who KRUGERSDORP HEARING TRC/GAUTENG 8 D B MOSHANI actually, was the alcohol being sold to the mine workers? MR MOSHANI The bottle store belonged to the mine and it was being operated by the owners of the mine. They closed down the bottle store, but they were not shot. They went outside the bottle store. As you go up to Soweto there is another shop along the road. That is the shop that I am referring to. They were heading towards that shop and that is where they were accosted by the police, when they were on the way towards that shop, that is where he was shot. MS SOOKA And the shop, was it still on the mine premises or was it off the mine premises? MR MOSHANI I think the shop, as the mine was quite big, it was close to the mine. I believed it belonged to the mine. MS SOOKA Thank you. CHAIRPERSON We have heard about the death of your brother. We also hope that they Commission shall try all that is in its power to try and investigate the matter. As soon as we have got some tangible information we shall get to you in due course. We have also heard the stories that you are not working and your brother had children as well as the fact that you want to know as to why your brother was killed. We shall send these recommendations forth to the Investigations Unit so that more information can be gathered so that we can get back to you. We thank you very much for having appeared before us. KRUGERSDORP HEARING TRC/GAUTENG