hrvtrans HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATIONS, SUBMISSIONS QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS 1996-11-14 KRUGERSDORP 4 REBECCA PHADI https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=55451&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/hrvtrans/krugers/phadi.htm CHAIRPERSON Our next speaker is Mrs Phadi. Whilst she is coming up we would like to welcome Mrs Joyce Dhanda who is the assistant-director of nursing at the Vereeniging Hospital. Good morning. We welcome you. Can you tell us who is accompanying you? MRS PHADI This is my elder brother, Jerry. CHAIRPERSON We thank him and welcome him as well. We will hand over to Dr Randera who will administer the oath. DR RANDERA Good morning. Rebecca, you have also come to talk and tell us about your brother, Jacob Phadi. MRS PHADI That is so, Sir. DR RANDERA We are going back to 1982, almost 14 years ago. Your brother also was a member of the PAC. Before we get to that will you please stand and take the oath. REBECCA PHANDI (Duly sworn, states)> CHAIRPERSON I will hand over now to Piet Meiring, to lead Rebecca. PROF MEIRING Mrs Phadi, Rebecca, if I may call you so, a word of welcome from my side too and to your brother. It is good of you to have come here today. You are going to tell us about your brother who was a member of the PAC and who disappeared round about 1982, June 1982. Before we start, may I just ask, were you living in KRUGERSDORP HEARING TRC/GAUTENG 2 R PHADI Kagiso at this stage? MRS PHADI I am staying in Extension 3, David Budeba Drive, 124, 64 is the house number. PROF MEIRING How long have you been staying there? MRS PHADI I think it is five years. PROF MEIRING When your brother disappeared, where did you stay then, also in Kagiso? MRS PHADI No, it was not in Kagiso, it was in Magaliesberg. PROF MEIRING In Magaliesberg. You were living in Magaliesberg. MRS PHADI Yes. DR RANDERA Please tell us from the time your brother left the house and everything started. DR RANDERA Yes, Sir. PROF MEIRING Thank you very much. Rebecca, please tell us what happened to your brother and the concerns you have about your brother. DR RANDERA When Japie left in 1977 we were very hurt. Japie was the child whom we loved very much. He was active. He liked going to school. He was very intelligent. He liked children. After he left, he disappeared. We were surprised and wondered where he was. After a week the police came and these police tortured my mother. Then they searched the house. Before the police came, when Japie arrived in Botswana, he wrote a letter. In that letter he wrote that he was going to study in Botswana. He said he is not going to stay in Botswana. From Botswana he would go to Zimbabwe, he would go to Lusaka, he will go to Zambia. After this letter arrived the police came. Then the KRUGERSDORP HEARING TRC/GAUTENG 3 R PHADI police tortured my mother. Then they searched the house. They say they heard that Japie is around. After that first visit they kept on coming to torture my mother. They came again. The next time they came with 16 vans. Then they surrounded the house. They kicked the doors and entered the house. Two of my brothers were then arrested. It was George and Dumile. George was 15 years at that time. Dumile was 13 years old at the time. They took them with them. They tied them on the trees. Then they beat them. George cannot hear properly now and he was mentally disturbed. After that George died. In 1980 George became sick and died. After he passed away my mother became cardiac. The police were harrassing my mother all the time. In 1982 my mother was still ill at the time, George passed away at Lorato Hospital. On the day she died Japie came home. When Japie arrived he didn't know that my mother had died. He hid himself at my aunt's place in Kagiso. He arrived after we had already buried my mother. He arrived at dawn, round about three o'clock to my mother's grave. Then he threw a little stone. He was not around during the funeral, he went to the tombstone to throw a stone. After that he went to my aunt at Kagiso, to stay there. When I went to give the statement I went to tell my cousin in Kagiso that because Japie is staying with them for a long time, they should tell me what is happening to Japie. Then they told me that Japie was a member of the Pan Africanist Congress. My cousin told me that at night they would go to places to plant bombs. He told me again that Japie went all over the country. He mentioned four countries. He went to Botswana, Zimbabwe, Lusaka and KRUGERSDORP HEARING TRC/GAUTENG 4 R PHADI Zambia. When I listened to my cousin because he had so much information. I want to request the Truth Commission to request my cousin to come and give evidence, because he was the one who was staying with him in 1982. I request the Truth Commission to help us to look for Japie. Even if he has died in a far place, they should bring the bones home. I thank you. PROF MEIRING Rebecca, thank you for your story. Your family has gone through a very traumatic time over many years. Can we just go back and may I ask you a number of questions surrounding your story and some of my colleagues around the table will no doubt also want to ask a few questions. I want to know about Japie. You said that you were very hurt when he left the family. You did not know at that stage that he was involved in politics. Was that a surprise to the family? MRS PHADI The family was not aware at that time. PROF MEIRING You told us that he was a very friendly young man and that he was good at school. What standard was he in at school when he left home? MRS PHADI He was doing Form 5, Std 10. PROF MEIRING A very disturbing thing you told us about, was when he left and you didn't even know where he went to, that the police came and your family was tortured, your mother was tortured and your two brothers were tortured. In what way was your mother tortured? MRS PHADI They would torture her, they would push her and kick the doors and ask her questions about her son's whereabouts. KRUGERSDORP HEARING TRC/GAUTENG 5 R PHADI PROF MEIRING She was not physically harmed to such an extent that she had to go to hospital? MRS PHADI Please repeat your question? PROF MEIRING She was no bodily harmed so that she needed medical attention after that? MRS PHADI She was suffering from diabetes and cardiac problems as well. Thereafter her condition became worse and she landed in Lorato Hospital and this led to the fact that her leg was amputated. PROF MEIRING Thank you. You told us about your two brothers, George and the other brother, that they had a very rough time. At one stage they were tied to trees and they were manhandled. Eventually you said that George died. Is that correct? MRS PHADI Yes, that is so. PROF MEIRING How old was he when he died? MRS PHADI He passed away in 1980. PROF MEIRING The other, your other brother, what became of him? MRS PHADI He is still around, he is working but he has memory loss sometimes. PROF MEIRING Can you just give us his name again, please. MRS PHADI His name is Dumahole. PROF MEIRING Thank you very much. You said that in 1977 your brother left home and he wrote a letter directly afterwards to say that he studied in Botswana. Then for a number of years there was no news of him. Was it only in 1982 that you heard from him for the first time? MRS PHADI That was the first time when we saw him in 1982, he sent that letter. PROF MEIRING Was that when your mother died? KRUGERSDORP HEARING TRC/GAUTENG 6 R PHADI MRS PHADI In 1982 he arrived the same day as my mother passed away. PROF MEIRING Was it just a coincidence, he didn't know about her death, he didn't come to the funeral, it just so happened that that was the same time he came home? MRS PHADI That is so. He was not coming to the funeral, it was just a coincidence. PROF MEIRING Did you speak to your brother when he returned? MRS PHADI No, I could not talk to him, because we were very busy. PROF MEIRING He stayed with your cousin and all the news you received was from the cousin, who afterwards told you about the things he did. MRS PHADI Yes, he sought hiding at my cousin's place, but the person who managed to talk to him was my elder brother. PROF MEIRING So the family had access to him, he spoke to the elder brother. MRS PHADI Yes, it is so, my brother had communications with him. PROF MEIRING What did he tell your brother, what did he do? Did he study, did he go to all the countries he wanted to or did he spend much of his time in South Africa involved in military operations? MRS PHADI Please repeat your question. PROF MEIRING He spoke to your brother. Did he tell your brother what he had been doing for the past five years? MRS PHADI All those things he told to my cousin. My brother just had a brief discussion with him. But most of the time he was with my cousin at my aunt's place. He spent most of the time with my cousin. KRUGERSDORP HEARING TRC/GAUTENG 7 R PHADI PROF MEIRING From your cousin you got the impression that he was very active, he was planting bombs and he was busy with all sorts of operations. MRS PHADI That is what my cousin told me, that he would accompany him in planting these bombs at night. PROF MEIRING At a certain stage he left your cousin's house. Was there trouble between them when he left the house or was it just for his own safety that he left? MRS PHADI When he left my cousin's place, it is because his sister in Mopapane told him that he must go; if he doesn't go she will call the police. Thereafter I don't know what happened. PROF MEIRING How is the relationship nowadays between the two families? MRS PHADI There is no happiness between the two families. PROF MEIRING So something happened and you are not very happy with that, the two families. MRS PHADI This happened. My cousin was angry with me after I asked all these questions. PROF MEIRING Thank you very much. I think those were the questions I needed to ask, but I will hand over to the chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Dr Randera? Tom Manthata? MR MANTHATA Rebecca, before your brother left who were his friends? MRS PHADI He was studying in Dobsonville. I don't know his friends. Even at home he never came with any friends. He didn't have too many friends. MR MANTHATA Have you ever gone to the PAC offices just to find out if they know anything about him, and what happened to him? KRUGERSDORP HEARING TRC/GAUTENG 8 R PHADI MRS PHADI I never went to the PAC office, but I did ask one of the PAC officials who is based in the Cape Town Parliament. He was in exile in 1975. I just asked him about Japie. He said that he did try and find out, but he never got any information about Japie. MR MANTHATA If I hear you clearly, you say Japie disappeared whilst at home. He didn't disappear whlist in exile. Is that what you are saying? MRS PHADI Can you please repeat your question? MR MANTHATA I want to know whether he disappeared when he had already returned from exile or whilst he was back home, did he go across the border again? Is it possible that he might have disappeared when he was over the border? MRS PHADI I cannot say whether he disappeared here in South Africa or whilst across the border. MR MANTHATA I thank you. CHAIRPERSON Dr Randera? DR RANDERA Rebecca, just tell me, Dumoholo and George, were they also members of the PAC? MRS PHADI Excuse me? DR RANDERA Your brothers George and Dumoholo, were they members of the PAC? MRS PHADI They were not members of the PAC. I am not sure, but they were just ordinary children who were going to school. DR RANDERA At times the torture that you are talking about, was just related to the fact that your brother had disappeared. MRS PHADI Yes, they were tortured because Japie left. DR RANDERA When did that stop, Rebecca? Japie disappeared in 1977. When did they stop harrassing your mother and your KRUGERSDORP HEARING TRC/GAUTENG 9 R PHADI brothers? MRS PHADI After George died, then they stopped. DR RANDERA In 1980? MRS PHADI Yes, that is so. DR RANDERA When your brother returned to the country, did the police not start coming back again and questioning you people again? MRS PHADI You mean when he returned in 1982? DR RANDERA In 1982, yes. MRS PHADI The police didn't know that he was around. He was hiding. He was hiding at my aunt's place. DR RANDERA The reason, I think it was Prof Meiring who asked you if you saw your brother and you said you had not seen him. The reason for not seeing him, was that because you were frightened or was it because he had sent instructions that you should not see him, what was the rason for the family not seeing your brother, besides your one brother, your older brother? MRS PHADI During that time we were in mourning. Therefore we did not have time and was unable to go and see him. We were busy preparing for the funeral of my mother. That time he was hiding himself at my aunt's place. So we didn't have time. DR RANDERA Did he not stay for long? How long do you think he stayed in Kagiso for at your aunt's place? MRS PHADI It seems it was one and a half weeks. DR RANDERA You mention your cousin Peter. After your brother disappeared - sorry, Paul, my apologies. Paul. After your brother disappeared, did your cousin have any contact with him, any further contact with him? MRS PHADI He didn't tell us that he did see him. He KRUGERSDORP HEARING TRC/GAUTENG 10 R PHADI didn't tell us whether he did see him. DR RANDERA After that there were no newspaper articles or the police coming to you or even your cousin coming to you and saying look, something has happened to Japie. MRS PHADI No, nobody came. Even our cousin was silent about this. When I went to give evidence he did say to me why I was so quiet for 20 years, that I should come and ask him today. So he was very angry. Then I told him that I must know because all the time you were with him, then I am going to give evidence to the Truth Commission. I requested him to tell me the whole story about Japie. DR RANDERA You mentioned a member of Parliament from the PAC. What is his or her name? MRS PHADI His name is Mokolisi, I think his surname is Moklasi. DR RANDERA (Indistinct - microphone not switched on) ... MRS PHADI I just asked him because in 1975 he was in exile. So I just asked him. Maybe when he was in exile maybe he met Japie there. DR RANDERA But he didn't say that he knew Japie. MRS PHADI He said in 1977 he was overseas, so he was not in Tanzania or Zambia or in one of these African countries, so he doesn't know about Japie. DR RANDERA Did he say that he would help you in terms of enquiries with the PAC? MRS PHADI Yes, he did ask the PAC and then he made a story about Japie. Then it appeared on paper, that if there is somebody who knows Japie in the PAC, he must inform us or write to us to tell us about Japie. DR RANDERA What became of that? MRS PHADI Nothing came out of that. KRUGERSDORP HEARING TRC/GAUTENG 11 R PHADI CHAIRPERSON Rebecca and your brother, we are very sorry to hear about your brother Japie. We know if you don't know the whereabouts of a person you become restless as to whether that person is alive or is dead. We heard your requests. We will ask our investigative unit to investigate this issue. They will talk to the PAC to find out where Japie is. Unfortunately we cannot force people to come and give evidence, but we heard your request that we should call Paul to come and give his side of the story, as far as he knows about Japie. We hope that your family and your cousin's families will reconcile, and that Japie's issue should not be the cause of the conflict. We will do our best in investigating, so as to find out whether Japie has died or is still alive. If he has died we would like to know where he was buried. When you are through we will ask our statement-takers to meet you so that this person sitting next to you, you can give him Paul's address, where he stays. KRUGERSDORP HEARING TRC/GAUTENG