hrvtrans 1 P STELLENBERG, HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATIONS, SUBMISSIONS QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS 1996-11-12 KRUGERSDORP 2 P STELLENBERG https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=55459&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/hrvtrans/krugers/stellenb.htm CHAIRPERSON Is it? DR RANDERA No, she is not coming. CHAIRPERSON She is not coming? Percy Christiaan Stellenberg. Percy, we welcome you and would like to know who has accompanied you today. MR STELLENBERG It is my wife. CHAIRPERSON It is your wife MR STELLENBERG Yes. CHAIRPERSON Welcome Mrs Stellenberg. I will hand over now to Dr Randera. DR RANDERA Percy, good morning. MR STELLENBERG Good morning. DR RANDERA And to your wife. Welcome. Percy, you are from Toekomsrus which is not that far as well. Before I hand over to the Chairperson, can you just stand to take the oath. PERCY CHRISTIAAN STELLENBERG (Duly sworn in, states). DR RANDERA Thank you Percy. CHAIRPERSON Yasmin Sooka is going to lead Percy. MS SOOKA Thank you Joyce. Percy, you have actually come to tell us about the shooting which has left you in the state that you are and we know that this happened during a time in Toekomsrus when there were riots. I wonder if you could tell us a little bit about yourself. How old you were KRUGERSDORP HEARING TRC/GAUTENG 2 P STELLENBERG at the time, what you were doing with your life, whether you were a member of any political organisation and then if you can tell us about the incident itself please. Thank you. MR STELLENBERG I am Percy Stellenberg and at that time I was 36 years of age. I lived in Toekomsrus in Randfontein and on the 18th of October of 1990. It was involved with the very high rent and the water and lights. On that particular day we decided, after having been at a meeting. I attended meetings very regularly to find out what the arrangements were with regards to the water and lights, whether it was going to be switched off or not and then eventually this led to riots. On that particular day our employer said that we were not allowed to come to work because there were riots in our area. The day past and at around four o' clock in the afternoon, maybe three o' clock, maybe four o' clock in the afternoon, I was sitting at my cousin's house. It then became unrestful and we decided that it would be better for us to return to our homes. During that time I was walking home with some of my friends, some other men who worked with me. As we were walking down Diamond Street or Diamantstraat we saw exactly how busy things were and when we asked people what was going on, we were told that Canon was killed and that the Panzer vehicle had driven over him. The armoured vehicle had driven over him. There were many children as well as grown men and we all decided to say that we had to chase off the soldiers since they had already killed one child. It then happened that we approached the armoured vehicles. We spoke with the soldiers and asked them please see what you have done. You have killed one child already. KRUGERSDORP HEARING TRC/GAUTENG 3 P STELLENBERG Why do you not rather leave otherwise there would be increasing violence. The children will become more angry and they will start throwing stones. The soldiers refused to listen to us despite us having spoken to them for ten minutes. While talking to them with a couple of these white men in the armoured vehicles, I did not notice that a person came out from the top of the armoured vehicle and then he shot me on purpose in the face. I cannot remember anything beyond that. When I awoke I was in hospital. MS SOOKA Can you tell us what was damaged by the shooting and what your own state of health is now? MR STELLENBERG Having been shot or after they shot me, one of the men got a private car which they stopped in the road as it passed and they put me in this car. I was then taken to Lenmac Clinic and there Dr Valley performed and emergency operation on me. Dr Valley then said to his colleagues that he though that my brain had been damaged one way or another because I was not calmed down by the anaesthetic and that I continued talking. He thought that my brain was damaged and that I would have to be taken to Baragwaneth Hospital. I was put in the ambulance and taken to Baragwaneth Hospital. That must have been between seven and nine o' clock at night. I cannot remember. I did not have a watch at that time. I arrived at Baragwaneth Hospital Thursday evening. I was put in a machine which they call a Scanner and after I came out of this machine I stayed in Baragwaneth for that Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday and then on the Monday, no one in the hospital helped me with washing or anything else. I was lying there in deep pain, I was given a pill KRUGERSDORP HEARING TRC/GAUTENG 4 P STELLENBERG and as I complained about the pain which I was experiencing, that is the only response. When my wife arrived at the hospital I asked her whether I could not return to Dr Valley or she could not return to Dr Valley and asked him if he could somehow address the problem since I was experiencing a lot of pain and receiving no assistance. My brother then took my sister to Dr Valley at his rooms and Dr Valley told them that under the circumstances they would rather bring me to him since he knew that I was badly hurt. I stayed in Lenmac Clinic for two further days. Then Dr Valley returned and said to me, Percy, you have been badly hurt. Your entire skull has been cracked and that several operations would be necessary. I then told Dr Valley to do whatever he could to return me to a state of proper health. The first operation he used wires to heal the cracks in my skull. He then told me that a second operation would be necessary since my bottom jaw had shifted. I am not sure exactly how long this operation lasted, but after the operation when I woke up I asked Dr Valley what my circumstances were now. He told me that he used screws for my lower jaw as well as plates in my cheeks so that my face could return to its original state since I was now misformed. This continued and after a further year I needed an additional operation since I was no longer able to breathe through my one nostril. They removed something from my ribcage and placed this in my nose to open my nose so that I could breathe. I am now able, again, to breathe properly. However, in Winter time I experience pain in my face. In Summer I smell a bloody smell and when I blow my nose there is hardened blood or what appears to be hardened KRUGERSDORP HEARING TRC/GAUTENG 5 P STELLENBERG blood that comes from my nose and I continue to smell this smell of blood. As Summer continues the one side of my face swells up as it gets warmer and in Winter I experience pain. MS SOOKA: Thank you very much. I am going to ask you some questions so that I can just make sure that we all understand what happened in Toekomsrus at the time. It seems from what you have said that people were protesting against the rents, the water and electricity. At that particular time was there a Management Committee structure in Toekomsrus? MR STELLENBERG Yes, such a structure did exist. MS SOOKA Were the people in favour of that or were they opposed to that structure? MR STELLENBERG The people were against the structure. MS SOOKA Why was that? MR STELLENBERG The reason for this was that it effected mostly the old people such as the pensioners. A pensioner would have received R200.00 a month. Then they would have to pay R160.00 rent, water and lights and from the remaining R40.00 what would this old woman live off? So logically, who could live from R40.00 a month? MS SOOKA Was there a Civic structure in Toekomsrus? MR STELLENBERG Not as far as I can remember, no. MS SOOKA I see from our own documentation that there was a Crisis Committee. Were you part of that Crisis Committee? MR STELLENBERG No, I was not a member of any organisation or committee. I was just a person in the community of Toekomsrus. MS SOOKA Was there a lot of conflict in that period between the police and the community? MR STELLENBERG Not really. The conflict only emerged the KRUGERSDORP HEARING TRC/GAUTENG 6 P STELLENBERG previous night when the police entered Toekomsrus. That was the Wednesday evening when the police and the soldiers entered Toekomsrus. It was on the Thursday that the rioting started. MS SOOKA What actually started the rioting? MR STELLENBERG I would not know because I am not a member of any of the organisations. I simply attended the meetings being a member of the community and because I was interested in the ways in which we attempted to lower the rents and so on and trying to talk to the people about it, the people in authority. We were unhappy because we as young people could afford it, but the old people could not afford it. MS SOOKA You also mentioned in your evidence that there was a youngster who was shot. I think you said Carno. MR STELLENBERG Yes. MS SOOKA Do you want to tell us a little bit about that please? MR STELLENBERG I was not there at the time when they shot Carno. We arrived there after Carno had already been shot and he was lying in the road. The people then said Carno had died. You could see that he was lying still and that he was indeed dead. As the people said, it was the armoured vehicle that had also driven over Carno after he had been shot. He was a very young person, he was about 17 or 18 years old at that time. MS SOOKA I just want to get that clear. You say he was shot and then after he was shot this armoured vehicle ran over him? MR STELLENBERG That is how the people told us when we arrived there, yes. MS SOOKA At the time when you were shot were other people KRUGERSDORP HEARING TRC/GAUTENG 7 P STELLENBERG shot with you? MR STELLENBERG No, I was the only person who was shot. It was only at that particular place where I was that any shooting happened and I do not know whether they shot anyone after I had been shot because I was immediately put in a private vehicle. They wanted to put me in an ambulance, but then the people said no, do not put him in the ambulance, put him in a car and get him to a clinic because otherwise he is going to bleed to death. From what I am told a white journalist of 702 Radio helped me. He put a scarf around me to stop the bleeding. MS SOOKA Was it your impression that the whole community was up in arms against the question of the rentals? Was the community joined together in their protest against this? MR STELLENBERG Most of the people were opposed to it. Especially as we went to the meetings we could see that people were really involved and their attention was aimed at helping the old people. MS SOOKA Could you tell me. I think you mention in your statement what your occupation was before the shooting. Can you tell me now if you still are employed in that capacity and if you are able to work at all and what the circumstances are of your, whether you are able to contribute to the family finance, that sort of detail? MR STELLENBERG I still work. I have just been off from work for about 12 weeks or six weeks, between ten or 12 weeks that I have been away from work. My children suffered from this. There was no income since I was the only breadwinner at home. As I have said, at times I get very bad dreams and I am scared to look in a mirror because it reminds me of what I look like. My own wife could not KRUGERSDORP HEARING TRC/GAUTENG 8 P STELLENBERG recognise me the first day that I was lying there in hospital. MS SOOKA At the time of all these operations that you had, who actually paid for them? Were they done at a hospital or were you on medical aid? How were you able to afford all of them? MR STELLENBERG I was fortunate to have had a very good medical aid. If it was not for my medical aid, I do not know what would have happened to me and how I would have paid the expenses and the doctors. Since most of the things in which I was helped I must thank, deeply, Dr Valley because he really helped me so that I am where I am at today. I do not think how I would have paid people otherwise. MS SOOKA Just two more questions. Did you at any stage lay a charge against the police and did you bring a civil claim against the Minister? MR STELLENBERG No, I did not lay a charge against the police. I did not lay a charge against anyone. While undergoing the final operation as I was lying in hospital my wife visited me and she said to me, Percy, you must come and live with my sister. I asked her why and she said that they had heard a rumour in the township that the police were still looking for me. I then said to her if that is the case, I was not a threat to anyone, I did not have a stone in my hand, I did not throw a stone at anyone. Just because I said to these people that they must leave because they are just creating additional problems, that is why the person shot me. Why should I run away from my home? I am going to go to my home and if they want to arrest me, they must do so at my home if that is what has to happen. Fortunately, they KRUGERSDORP HEARING TRC/GAUTENG 9 P STELLENBERG never came to my home. Until today no one has come to me and I have made no charge because I was scared that if I went to the police station I would be arrested. MS SOOKA Do you know the name of the policeman who shot you? MR STELLENBERG No, as I have said, I was talking to the men sitting inside the Casper armoured vehicle, but I did not see the person who came out from the top to shoot me. I was standing on the ground and he came from out of the top of the vehicle. I only saw a reflection that it was a white person, but I could not recognise his face or anything. He was wearing glassed in any event. As I was trying to turn around, because they had refused to go away, that is when I was shot. MS SOOKA Do you remember the name of the journalist who assisted you at the time? MR STELLENBERG No, I cannot. I was just told that it was a journalist from 702. A woman who helped me, a white woman. She bent over me and she put the scarf around my face to stop the bleeding. MS SOOKA Thank you. I have no questions and I will hand you over to the Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Dr Randera. DR RANDERA Percy, just tell me a little about Toekomsrus. INTERPRETER Dr Randera's microphone is not on. DR RANDERA Sorry. I did press the button, but it did not work. My apologies. Percy, just tell me a little about Toekomsrus prior to, I mean, there is another statement here as well and both of you talk about rioting there. Prior to this was Toekomsrus a very quiet, law-abiding community? MR STELLENBERG Yes, Toekomsrus was a quiet community. KRUGERSDORP HEARING TRC/GAUTENG 10 P STELLENBERG There was never any rioting. Most of the rioting we would only read about and hear about on the news. It was very quiet in Toekomsrus until that time. When this happened that the people were told that the Committee which they have founded to attempt to fight so that we could help the people to pay lower rent and these kinds of things. It is only from that time that Toekomsrus became more riotsome and full of unrest. DR RANDERA The thing that triggered the riot was the killing of this young person. Is that what you are telling us? MR STELLENBERG Yes because after they killed Carno or shot Carno the children became very angry. He was, after all, a young person, a young man out of the community. We tried to stop the young children, not to throw stones because we said that this would not help and that we should rather try and get these other people to leave so that we can solve the problem. In my view it was the fault of the police and the soldiers because they were very aggressive that day. I could not have been ten metres away from this man when he shot me like that in cold blood. I was very close to the armoured vehicle. DR RANDERA What made you yourself join the protest? I mean you were working, you had a job. MR STELLENBERG Because of the problems with the rent and the lights and water. As a member of the community I wanted to add my voice to try and help and to try and talk and ask if someone could not bring a solution so that we could help, in particular, the pensioners, the old people. Since we young people could afford the rent at that time, but the pensioners could not afford it and there were very many old KRUGERSDORP HEARING TRC/GAUTENG 11 P STELLENBERG people in our area. People who received a pension and the rent and the water and lights that they had to pay, with the balance that remained, how could they live from that R40.00 or maybe even R20.00. One cannot live from that little. DR RANDERA Now you mention both soldiers and police. MR STELLENBERG Yes. DR RANDERA Who was actually doing the shooting? Both groupings or just the police? MR STELLENBERG The people who shot me were soldiers because they were in this armoured vehicle. It was a vehicle for soldiers. DR RANDERA So they were soldiers not police. MR STELLENBERG Yes, they were soldiers. DR RANDERA I do not have anymore questions. Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Piet Meiring. PROF MEIRING Mr Stellenberg, you have come through very difficult times, but I do want to ask you a few small questions with regard to the shooting in particular. You were shot and your face, and particularly your eyes, were damaged. Was this with sharp ammunition or not? MR STELLENBERG When I was lying in Baragwaneth Hospital on Friday morning the doctors discussed with one another. The one doctor said to the other that he could not believe that it was live bullet that was used because that would have blown away my whole face. He rather thought that it might have been a rubber bullet or something that injured me in this way. All my teeth were shot out of my mouth and so on. PROF MEIRING I also wanted to know, just to get back slightly to your own family circumstances. Where are you working at the moment? MR STELLENBERG I work in Booysens in Johannesburg. KRUGERSDORP HEARING TRC/GAUTENG 12 P STELLENBERG PROF MEIRING What kind of work do you do? MR STELLENBERG I work in an Engineering works. PROF MEIRING Is this where you have worked all along, also when you were shot? MR STELLENBERG Yes, but the factory has changed its name over time. PROF MEIRING What kind of work do you yourself do? MR STELLENBERG I am a Turner. PROF MEIRING So you can continue with this work despite what happened to you? MR STELLENBERG Yes, I can because I use my hands most of the time. PROF MEIRING What is the size of your family? MR STELLENBERG It is my wife and two children. PROF MEIRING And what is the age of these young ones? MR STELLENBERG At the time of the shooting the son was seven and my daughter was 13, but now they are much older. PROF MEIRING Do they attend school or have they left school already? MR STELLENBERG No, they still both attend school. PROF MEIRING Thank you very much. A last question. In each case we have returned to the young man, Carno who was shot and who to some extent was the trigger of the events. Would you know whether his parents still live in Toekomsrus? MR STELLENBERG: As far as I know his father was already deceased and his mother is since deceased. PROF MEIRING So you would not know whether his case has been brought under the attention of the Truth Commission by anyone? MR STELLENBERG No, I really do not know. PROF MEIRING A final question. Are things calm in KRUGERSDORP HEARING TRC/GAUTENG 13 P STELLENBERG Toekomsrus now? MR STELLENBERG Yes, peace has returned. PROF MEIRING Thank you for having come here. CHAIRPERSON Mr Stellenberg, just one question from me. I would like to know what were the living conditions at Toekomsrus at the time when people rioted against the higher rental tariffs? MR STELLENBERG After I had been shot and went to hospital, there was a curfew in Toekomsrus. The people said that this is the quickest that a curfew has come anywhere. Only within the course of 24 hours it came to Toekomsrus and they asked why such a small place would so rapidly be placed under curfew since the rioting did not last long. We were simply put under curfew. CHAIRPERSON Were the services that you got from the Council which necessitated this increased rentals adequate? MR STELLENBERG Yes, one could say that, but the services were good, not good enough necessarily, but if at that time they listened to what people were saying, I doubt that all of these events would have taken this course and I would not have been injured as I had been. Now I have a scar in my face which I have to carry for the rest of my life. I do not have a tooth in my mouth. CHAIRPERSON Thank you very much, Mr Stellenberg, for coming forward. We know the discomfort and the pain you have to endure as a result of the screws on both your upper and lower jaws and also the fact that you are aware that it has changed your whole lifestyle and you are worried about these scars. We can only say we hope you will try to go through this as you have done so wonderfully because you still maintain your job and as far as the request that you KRUGERSDORP HEARING TRC/GAUTENG 14 P STELLENBERG have made on your statement to the TRC about getting the policeman who did this to you, I can only say we will try to refer this to our Investigation Unit and we hope we could succeed. Thank you very much. MR STELLENBERG I want to ask the Commission whether it would be possible to help me to tell me where and to whom I should go since I do not know whether in future I might need further operations or other medical services related to this incident. Since I am just a normal working person and the only working person in my family. To whom should I go to assist me and who would pay me for this damage which I had sustained? I will look the way I do now for the rest of my life. In the past I use to enjoy getting along with strangers. I have now withdrawn only to deal with the people I know well since they know me the way I am, but amongst strangers, people look at you without them saying anything, you can see in their faces what they think and what they are talking about. I want to ask the Commission to whom I should go so that I may receive some reparation or whether it would be possible for me to receive any reparation. Especially in future when I grow older I might have to have additional operations and I might then not be working at all. So, how would I then pay for the operations I might undergo. After all I do not know what the future holds. Even though I have kept my work thus far, I do not know whether this would remain the case or for how long. CHAIRPERSON We realise that Mr Stellenberg. We have a Reparation and Rehabilitation Committee within the Truth and Reconciliation Commission and I shall ask my colleague Professor Piet Meiring to answer that question for you. PROF MEIRING Mr Stellenberg, thank you. While you were KRUGERSDORP HEARING TRC/GAUTENG 15 P STELLENBERG speaking I made notes of that which you said. It is indeed the case that when we make recommendations with regard to reparations, several things would have to be considered. Financial aid would have to be considered, but I have heard you saying that in a certain sense, your greatest need is further medical attention and that you need advice and support in this regard. We take careful note of this. I have also made a note with regard to the emotional injury you have undergone. That you feel uncomfortable amongst others and we will indeed pay attention to this also. As we say everytime, you must be aware that the Truth Commission can only make recommendations. Eventually the Government would have to bring into being an office which will carry out our recommendations. So we cannot fix everything by tomorrow, but ... what a person might have been and what the circumstances might have been. We will happily give you this information. MR STELLENBERG Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Thank you very much once more. MR STELLENBERG Thank you. KRUGERSDORP HEARING TRC/GAUTENG