hrvtrans 1 M VARA, HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATIONS, SUBMISSIONS QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS 1996-11-12 KRUGERSDORP 2 M VARA https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=55460&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/hrvtrans/krugers/vara.htm CHAIRPERSON Vara. I will have to clarify that from administration whether it is Vaga or Vara. DR RANDERA Vara, it says Vara here. CHAIRPERSON Yes, but in Xhosa it could be Vaga. DR RANDERA I see, okay, sorry. CHAIRPERSON Our next witness is Ntobela Vara. DR RANDERA Is this the surname. CHAIRPERSON Vara. DR RANDERA Vara is the surname. CHAIRPERSON We greet you Mr Vara, can you hear properly? MR VARA Yes, I can hear. CHAIRPERSON I am going to hand over to Dr Randera to administer the oath. DR RANDERA Thank you Mr Vara, if you will just repeat after me. NTOBELA VARA (Duly sworn in, states). CHAIRPERSON Dr Randera is going to lead Mr Vara. DR RANDERA Mr Vara you are 26 years old? MR VARA That is correct. DR RANDERA And you also live in Swanieville? INTERPRETER The speakers mike is not on. DR RANDERA Sorry. You also live in Swanieville? MR VARA That is correct. DR RANDERA And you have presently ...... May 1991 when the KRUGERSDORP HEARING TRC/GAUTENG 2 N VARA attack on Swanieville took place. MR VARA That is correct. DR RANDERA Can you tell me what was your work at the time? MR VARA I was working as a mechanic. That was my job. DR RANDERA And were you married then? MR VARA No, I was not married. DR RANDERA ....... MR VARA I have only one child. DR RANDERA How old? MR VARA The child is ten years old. DR RANDERA So on the morning of the attack who was staying with you in the house? Who was with you in the house? MR VARA There were three of us. There were the three of us in the house. My brother Tops and a friend of mine. DR RANDERA Can you just tell us in your own words what happened on that morning? MR VARA On that particular day we were in bed. While we were still sleeping we heard gunfire outside. I woke my brother up and asked if he could hear what was happening outside. He woke up and I told him not to open the door. We must first observe by looking through the window. ... and we could see that people that were surrounding the shack, even the cars. They said come out. They were telling some insults. That is what the people said. We did not get a chance to go out of the shack. They surrounded the shack. My shack has a door made of zinc and they asked where is the door of this shack because they could not see the door. That is how we escaped. That is how we survived because they could not see the door. We heard the gunshots. They were shooting. When I peeped through the window I saw a white policeman which was KRUGERSDORP HEARING TRC/GAUTENG 3 N VARA right in the police Casper. I said Tops, we cannot go to that policeman for help because it looks like he is the one who is shooting. Let us just stay here. We will see what happens. They were setting the shacks on fire and even the cars were set alight. DR RANDERA So you stayed in your shack all this time? MR VARA Yes, there was no chance of going out because if we went out we were going to die. DR RANDERA Now, the other people who were attacking and burning the shacks, how many would you say there were? MR VARA When I looked at them through the window it was a lot of people. If we can go out, the three of us, we would do nothing and we did not have weapons at the time. DR RANDERA In your statement you say you and some of your friends would go into Kagiso to patrol at night to protect people, protect people against the IFP. Now in your opinion, the people that you saw outside the shacks, were they IFP people? MR VARA Yes, they were IFP people. They had that red cloth they use to put around their heads. DR RANDERA And besides attacking the shacks they were also attacking people? MR VARA They were attacking everything especially men in Swanieville. It is only women that they were not interested in. DR RANDERA Ms Seroke said earlier on that 26 people died that night, but you in your statement say there was a white policeman. I do not know whether there were others shooting at people as well. You are clear about that? MR VARA Yes, that is correct because this police Casper was next to my shack and this policeman was in that police KRUGERSDORP HEARING TRC/GAUTENG 4 N VARA Casper shooting. The police Casper was not moving. DR RANDERA ....... MR VARA Yes, he was wearing a police uniform. DR RANDERA Did you report the incident afterwards to the police or anybody else? MR VARA We were still confused because when this happened the people who were taking statements came and asked about what happened. I told them that as I just told you right now. DR RANDERA You also mention that you know that people were charged and then acquitted in your statement. Were you called to court at any time? MR VARA Yes, I was once called. We went to Johannesburg and we did not even say anything, but they said the case was dismissed. DR RANDERA I just want to ask one more question and this is related to this issue of The Men and Women group, Men and Women group, yes. Were you part of either of those groups? MR VARA No, I was not a member of such groups. I was a group of The Women's group. I was a member of The Women's group. DR RANDERA So, ....... MR VARA I was a member of the group that was called Women because that area that I was staying in, they use to refer to us as women. It means I was one of them because of the area that I was staying in. DR RANDERA I have no more questions. CHAIRPERSON Piet Meiring. PROF MEIRING I would like to ask a question or two about your family. You told us in the beginning that you are married and that you have one child ten years old. Is it a KRUGERSDORP HEARING TRC/GAUTENG 5 N VARA boy or a girl? CHAIRPERSON It is a girl. PROF MEIRING ....... MR VARA Yes, she is in Ciskei. She is attending school there. PROF MEIRING She is not with her mother. MR VARA We separated with the mother. She is staying with my mother. PROF MEIRING In the Ciskei? MR VARA Yes. PROF MEIRING And what do you do? What is your work at the moment? MR VARA What I do now? PROF MEIRING What are you doing at the moment? Are you working? MR VARA Yes, I am still a mechanic. PROF MEIRING ... that lives with your mother in the Ciskei; was she in Swanieville when the thing happened or was she with your mother in the Ciskei? MR VARA On that particular day she was with my sister-in-law. She was not in that shack. PROF MEIRING Thank you very much. Those were my questions. MR VARA Okay. CHAIRPERSON Yasmin Sooka. MS SOOKA Mr Vara, I just want to ask you the same question that I asked the other witnesses. What do you understand was the difference between The Men and The Women's group? That is the first question. MR VARA I did not even care whether they call me a woman or what because I knew very well that I was a man. I am a KRUGERSDORP HEARING TRC/GAUTENG 6 N VARA man, I am not a woman. MS SOOKA Why do you think they made this distinction between the two groups? MR VARA That's what I don't know. I am saying to you, I didn't even care whether they called me that, because I know that I am a man, I am not a woman. MS SOOKA Were both groups part of the ANC? MR VARA It is only a person who knows himself or herself whether he or she is ANC or not. That I won't know. MS SEROKE Mr Vara, I just want to ask you this. The way you look at this, do you think the people who are referred to as women, is it because they were cowards, that they cannot fight for themselves, and those who are referred to as men are the people who are capable of protecting the squatter camp? MR VARA Yes, that's what I think, because a man will never stand together with a woman. MS SEROKE If it is because of that, why did they decide to call you by that name? Is it because you refused to do some of the things that they wanted you to do? MR VARA We were patrolling every night, there was no difference, both women and men, we were doing the very same thing. MS SEROKE Maybe it was just a joke? MR VARA Yes, I think so. MS SEROKE How much was the damage after they had burnt your property? MR VARA I had three cars, all three were burnt to ashes. Even my tools were destroyed. The tools were in the cars, and if you use it now it is no longer working properly. I couldn't use them after the fire. KRUGERSDORP HEARING TRC/GAUTENG 7 N VARA MS SEROKE You say you attended the court hearing where they wanted to resolve the matter. I am going to read here the court resolution. After our research unit had investigated this. I am going to read this in English. It will be interpreted to you in Xhosa. MS SEROKE: (Indistinct - microphone not switched on) ... "... 1993, seven men accused of murder during the Swanieville attack were acquitted for lack of evidence. The police were criticised for having brought only these seven out of the estimated 1 000 attackers to court, and of preparing poor cases against them." MR VARA Yes, I remember that. MS SEROKE Is what what you heard? MR VARA Yes. MS SEROKE There is nothing that we can say at the moment. Do you have any requests that you would like to make before we conclude this matter? MR VARA When I think about my assets, it is very painful, it is very painful, because I can't stop thinking about that because the damage was so much. MS SEROKE So what do you mean? MR VARA I am not satisfied, because what they burnt to ashes were my assets, I am still hurting because of that. MS SEROKE We sympathise with you. I cannot make promises at the moment, because we cannot accused anybody, but we can try and do something and make some recommendations for the people who suffered a lot at the time. Thank you very much for taking the responsibility of coming forward. We say you must try - we know it is not that easy to heal. Healing can KRUGERSDORP HEARING TRC/GAUTENG 8 N VARA take time, but we hope that you will also reach that level whereby you will feel that all that happened is behind you. You are going to concentrate on your future. Thank you very much. DR RANDERA Chairperson, I just want to emphasise a few points here. I have in my possession, and I think we need to understand this process very clearly, that we are asking all these questions. I mean, today with the people from Swanieville, out of the four people three identified once more the involvement of the police, in that massacre. I have a statement here from a policeman actually who also verifies that the internal stability unit was involved on that morning and identifies one particular policeman, that he recognises. That he actually went after that unit, stopped the Casspir and nothing was done. Tomorrow's Sowetan carries an article again on this very massacre, and it was a massacre. I think we must be - although the people who have come forward today are not victims. One person lost a family member. But there were 26 people killed and over 100 people injured. Was must not forget that. The point I am trying to make is that we are investigating this massacre once again. The opportunity is there for people on this particular massacre, people from the police force as well as members of the Inkatha Freedom Party, to come forward and apply for amnesty. We have had in the last week the director-general of the South African Police Services clearly appealing once again to members within the services, to come forward and talk about what they were involved in. Now the deadline for amnesty is 14 December, which isn't far away. We also heard KRUGERSDORP HEARING TRC/GAUTENG 9 N VARA heard yesterday, and I don't want to be misinterpreted by what I am saying, we also heard yesterday about the killings that took place in Futsong. Now once again, in the last week we have had a statement from, if I can say that, from the African National Congress, who clarified their particular position and said at the Press conference that they have got processes where within each branch and in each region, if people want to go and talk about these issues, they will advise them accordingly. I think people need to take advantage of that situation. I just want to emphasise that point again. Thank you very much, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON We have come to the end of our hearings today. I would like to thank all of you who came to support our witnesses and who came to listen to these heartrending stories. I know such stories open old wounds and I hope some of you who belong to support structures in the community, will follow up these cases and see what kind of help, in terms of counselling, in terms of just visiting and checking on the people we have met today and who have come to testify. We know you did all these things when we had the struggle, and I am sure now that we are trying to heal our land, you will still come forward to help your neighbours. Some of the people who came here are known to you, some are your neighbours, some are relatives and I know they will need your support after they have been here today. We thank you very much for your attention and the interest that you have shown today. We will continue tomorrow and we will start at nine o'clock. Thank you very much. HEARING ADJOURNS KRUGERSDORP HEARING TRC/GAUTENG