hrvtrans HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATIONS, SUBMISSIONS QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS 1997-05-14 3 DANIEL PAULOS NONGENA & MAKHI BOYI EC1985/96KWT https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=55494&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/hrvtrans/kwtown/kwtmambo.htm DANIEL PAULOS NONGENA (sworn states) MAHKI BOYI (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON MR SANDI Mr Chairperson, we will start with Mr Boyi. Could he come closer to the mike please. Mr Boyi, when I look at this statement before us you say that in 1963 you were ill-treated by the police as a member of the PAC. Mr Boyi could you tell us what happened on this particular day in 1963 and who the police were that are the perpetrators. MR BOYI Mr Chairperson in 1963, I was arrested and I was sentenced in 1964. MR SANDI Why were you arrested ? MR BOYI Because I was a member of the PAC, as it was banned at the time. This is why I was arrested. In 1964, March, I was sentenced and I was taken to Robben Island. I MR SANDI Thank you Sir. You say that this Mr Card introduced himself to you. MR BOYI Yes, he introduced himself. MR SANDI Did he give his full name and his title ? MR BOYI MR SANDI Did you hear about him after that ? MR BOYI Yes. MR SANDI What did you hear about him ? MR BOYI He was known in East London, also this side. He used to move around with Xantisebe. He would investigate political organizations. It was a long time ago when this incident occurred. MR SANDI MR BOYI MR SANDI Is that all the evidence, Mr Boyi ? MR BOYI Yes. MR SANDI Do you have requests before the Commission ? MR BOYI Excuse me ? MR SANDI Do you have requests before the Commission in connection with this incident ? MR BOYI Mr Chairperson, I have no requests. This man was doing his job. MR SANDI In your statement you say that you wish to meet him. Is that so ? MR BOYI MR SANDI Do you have reasons to request this meeting ? MR BOYI I just want to see him now that I am free and in liberation, I just want to see him and look at him. MR SANDI Thank you Mr Boyi. Lets continue with Mr Nongena. Mr Nongena, your full names are Daniel Paulos Nongena. Is that so ? MR NONGENA Yes. MR SANDI MR NONGENA MR SANDI What is a straight-jacket ? MR NONGENA MR SANDI They wanted you totalk. MR NONGENA MR SANDI Are you referring to Xanti, Xanti Charles Sebe ? MR NONGENA Yes. MR SANDI MR NONGENA Charles said that Card was going to sort us out. MR SANDI Where was Donald Card at the time ? R NONGENA There were three of them, it was at night. I cannot identify him. They would beat us up behind the prison. MR SANDI Thank you Sir. Is that all the evidence, Mr Nongena. MR NONGENA MR SANDI Do you have a request in connection with this incident ? MR NONGENA I do, there are a lot of people who died in our area in the struggle for liberation. There should be some form of project for the whole village. I do not want to have compensations just for myself, I want it for the entire village, because it was for the people that I was fighting for. you beaten up ? MR SANDI: I will hand over to the Chairperson. MR NONGENA There were three people, Mazinxanti, that you knew who was Charles. CHAIRPERSON What about the others ? What type of a man was he ? MR NONGENA It was a white man. CHAIRPERSON Do you perhaps know who the 3rd person was ? MR NONGENA Yes, it is Xanti whose mentioned his name. CHAIRPERSON When Xanti said that Card is going to sort you out, what did Card do ? MR NONGENA Card would beat us up. CHAIRPERSON With what ? MR NONGENA He would kick us, punch us. He was demanding the truth, so to speak. CHAIRPERSON What was the duration of time ? MR NONGENA It was over a few days. It is Charles and Hatanga that were there all the time. Card was not there all the time. I said that they must take a true report, put it on my forehead and rather shoot me. CHAIRPERSON MR NONGENA Yes, he was present the one night only. MS MAYA Thank you Sir. CHAIRPERSON Mr Boyi, maybe you can clarify the form of torture that was used on you people. Mr Nongena said that a straight-jacket was used as a form of torture. What were they using with you ? MR BOYI They were beating us up, punching and kicking. CHAIRPERSON MR BOYI I remember his name because a lot of people were talking about card in a similar manner. This is why I did not forget his name. He was known for torturing people. CHAIRPERSON MR BOYI CHAIRPERSON And Card ? MR BOYI CHAIRPERSON In your evidence Mr Boyi. In your evidence you mentioned Johnson Nongena. Sorry, it is the other gentleman that mentioned his name. Please give him the mike. Mr Nongena in your evidence your mentioned Johnson Nongena. Where you arrested together? MR NONGENA They were arrested before me. CHAIRPERSON When you were tortured with the method of a straight-jacket, was Mr Nongena there ? MR NONGENA we were not in the same cell. CHAIRPERSON Are there people that you remember who are still alive, who would help us with this evidence, witnesses perhaps ? MR NONGENA The person who would help me has passed away. He had a car accident. He would help me, were he alive. CHAIRPERSON MR BOYI It was Mr Botha. CHAIRPERSON Which firm was this ? MR BOYI Athangkite is now referred to as water affairs. CHAIRPERSON MR BOYI CHAIRPERSON Even though you were touched deeply and you cried. We are not happy, they are happy, they hurt us. We thank you that when you were asked to list your requests, you were altruistic enough to think of the other people in the village and not yourself. A lot of people are self-centered. If they need a mat that is that. They forget about the rest of the nation. Your request that there be a monument for all those who passed on through the struggle for liberation. You said that there should also be a project that would help the people of the village and not yourself. There are only a few men like you. We should learn from you, so that we also can be honourable people one day. We thank you both for your evidence. We request that you now step down, knowing that you have touched us deeply. Thank you. We welcome you, Mr Clarke. You have already introduced yourself, to us, but just for sake of record, could you please just confirm that you are who you are and the instructions that have been given to you. MR CLARKE CHAIRPERSON Thank you very much. MR CLARKE Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Welcome, Mr Card?. We will request you to take the oath, so that the testimony that are giving is under oath. Over to you Reverend Xundu. MR CARD? (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Card? and Mr Clarke. I will, I will be asking Mr Clarke perhaps just to quickly address us on the procedure that he wants to follow, but before I do so, I would like to welcome you. We had some confusion when your name was MR CLARKE CHAIRPERSON Well, we regret the misinformation that we received. MR CLARKE Thank you. The other aspect, the first aspect that arises. We were furnished with a summary of the evidence to be given by Mr Boyi and by Mr Nongena. We have listened this morning to their evidence. On the strength of the summary which was furnished to us, an affidavit was prepared by Mr Card?, by us, on behalf of Mr Card? and has been handed to the Commission and which I understand is in your possession. It dealt with the allegations as set out in the summary, although as it indicated, was a very brief summary, Mr Card? did the best he could to deal with the allegations. It seems MR CARD? when they came up here, did I realize for the first time that those were obviously the people. I have never seen them in my life before. MR CLARKE Mr Card?, Mr Boyi ... CHAIRPERSON MR CARD? CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mr Card?. Mr Clarke does that conclude your matter for now ? We are going to be raising a few questions from our side, and we thank you for your submission. We have noted the comments that you have made, preliminary comments raising the discrepancy in terms of the statement originally, statement.... oral evidence which has been led here and will apply amongst that. Questions ? Mr Sandi ? MR SANDI Thank you, Mr Chairman. There is an old saying, Mr Card? that says, dead men tell no tales. I noticed that in your submission, you mentioned two names and that is, Mr Hattingh and Mr Sebe. I understand both men have since deceased. Is that correct? MR CARD? MR SANDI In your affidavit .... MR CARD? In my statement I have mentioned Maynard and Baba Goosen, the two gentlemen, I worked with all the time over that period. MR SANDI And they are both dead ? MR CARD? MR SANDI Do you think these three old men have any particular reasons to implicate you in these matters ? MR CARD? MR SANDI MR CARD? was told by a member of the PAC who was in custody with them. MR SANDI Thank you, Mr Chairman. I will stop for a moment, maybe I will come back for further questions. Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Ms Maya. MS MAYA Thank you, Mr Chairperson. Mr Card?, I only have one question for you. Was there another policeman by your name in the Police Force at that time, possibly based in the same area ? MR CARD? No. MS MAYA In fact that could have resulted in this mistaken identity ? MR CARD? No. I did have a son in the police force who was also a D. Card?, but he only came, he joined the police force many, many years afterwards. Not at that time at all. MS MAYA Do you have any idea at all what could have resulted in this mistaken identity ? MR CARD? If ? MS MAYA Do you have idea at all what could have caused this mistaken identity, as you call it ? MR CARD? MS MAYA Thank you, Mr Card?. CHAIRPERSON Reverend Xundu. REVEREND XUNDU Thank you, Mr Chairman. I just want to know first from Mr Card? whether he would in fact remember the faces of all the persons who went through his hands in terms of investigation and interrogation. MR CARD? REVEREND XUNDU You realize that probably because of age, these gentlemen who were here, have also changed a lot, in terms of their features and probably the flesh on their faces, so it would be hard really to try and remember who they were. MR CARD? REVEREND XUNDU I just want to ask another question. Question is, was it common practice for police to rough up prisoners in order to get information from them during the course of your ... (interrupted) MR CARD? REVEREND XUNDU MR CARD? REVEREND XUNDU MR CARD? CHAIRPERSON You are raising ... Are you finished ? REVEREND XUNDU: MR CARD? I put up my hands Mr Chair, I surrender on that one. REVEREND XUNDU Thank you very much. (Laughs) CHAIRPERSON June Crichton. MRS CRICHTON MR CARD? months we picked up over 300 well, 300 people, well about 300 people, so I was working months we picked up over 300 well, 300 people, well about 300 people, so I was working there all the time. I had no idea who was involved here, but I do know that Gert Hattingh was one of those who did work here. MRS CRICHTON And the second part of the question is just to ask you, who was it who was actually directing the operations in terms of you being kept in East London, others being sent to East London. Who was ... MR CARD? You mean to King? MRS CRICHTON Yes. MR CARD? MRS CRICHTON Thank you. Thank you Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Mr Card, just one last question from me. We can spend the whole day raising questions with you and soliciting your opinions on a number of issues, but your case, as you are perhaps now aware, has become one of the more curious cases, especially in our region for this Commission. The key question is, who is Donald Card?, what is the truth about that. There is the picture of, on one hand there is the picture of Donald Card?, the hero, a man who lays his life on the line, sacrificing all in order to take that fateful step of trying, of assisting Donald Wood into exile. Donald Card? who we have to respect, to admire, to salute for tremendous courage. MR CARD? CHAIRPERSON Can I just interrupt you at that stage ? MR CARD? I beg your pardon ? CHAIRPERSON I want to interrupt you at this stage, that you are describing. Did you perhaps in retrospect, look back into that period and find that in your zeal to make a MR CARD? CHAIRPERSON Okay. MR CARD? CHAIRPERSON MR CARD? Mr Chairman, I was one of those in 1988, who went to Lusaka. CHAIRPERSON I remember that. MR CARD? To try and look for peace. CHAIRPERSON Well thank you Mr Card?, as I say we could go on the whole day. We have a very serious task before us as this Commission, to try and find the truth, not as perhaps as you perceive it, but as you and them will come to be reconciled in the truth. A truth that will heal the wounds of the many people in the country and perhaps deal with why people have this perception of you. MR CARD? CHAIRPERSON Well, thank you very much. Thank you, Mr Clarke and thank you Mr Card?. We hope that this is not the end of our meeting. We may have to meet again for a more in-depth look at this particular dilemma that we are in as a Commission on this matter. Thank you very much. MR CARD? & MR CLARKE Thank you.