hrvtrans HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATIONS, SUBMISSIONS QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS 1997-05-13 KING WILLIAM'S TOWN 2 BOYCE MTYOBILE https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=55500&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/hrvtrans/kwtown/mtyobile.htm CHAIRMAN: Boyce Mtyobile and Meyile Malcomeso Siwayi. REVD XUNDU Mr Chairperson, may I swear them in? BOYCE MTYOBILE (sworn states) REVD XUNDU This gentleman is complaining that he needs some form of hearing aid, maybe he should put the earphones on. You may stand up sir. MEYILE MALCOMESO SIWAYI (sworn states) REVD XUNDU Thank you sir. Mr Chairperson, they have been properly sworn in. CHAIRMAN Tiny Maya? MS MAYA Mr Mtyobile can I start with you. You are going to talk about two incidents, especially in connection with the 10th of January 1990, but your story is not clear before us. Please tell us what happened. MR MTYOBILE It was the 10th of January 1990, I was on duty at Nqongweni, that is where we were camping in a tent. At the time, there were fights. The people were against the Headmen. MS MAYA Were you a policeman or a soldier? MR MTYOBILE I was a policeman. MS MAYA Thank you, please carry on. MR MTYOBILE There were four of us on duty, but when the incident occurred, there was only three of us left. The one had left and said that he does not feel at peace, he would rather go to Bisho where we worked. The others that were left, was sleeping because we would give each other chances to sleep, four hours at a time. At about 2 am, when I was waking them up so that I could sleep, I heard something being thrown into the tent and when I tried to figure out what it was, something else was thrown. I realised that it was a hand grenade. I just felt something wet on my feet. One of my toes was sore as if I tripped over, I hid my head behind the bed, I also felt something wet on my thigh. I could not take much notice of this at the time. I felt the person next to me, just to see if he was still alive, we held onto each other. The noise continued. The bangs went on. The dogs were barking. We realised that as the dogs were barking, the people were running away. We tried to get out, I told them that it is as if I had been shot. They ran out. When I tried to run out, I fell because there as gas that was suffocating me. I was dizzy. I called out to come get me. The walkie talkie we had, was not working at the time. We tried to get a house with a phone, we phoned the Control at Bisho to tell them about the incident. I was then taken to hospital, an ambulance came to fetch me. MS MAYA So what was happening, who attacked you? MR MTYOBILE I do not know who was attacking, however there was a rumour that I cannot be sure of. That is apparent that it was an inside job, it was the other police. MS MAYA Was there a reason why you would be attacked by yet other police? MR MTYOBILE These things would happen, they happened at the time. MS MAYA What were the reasons? MR MTYOBILE So that it would appear as if it was one of the political organisations. MS MAYA Had there been such incidents prior to yours? MR MTYOBILE Yes. MS MAYA And at the same place? MR MTYOBILE No, other places. MS MAYA We will request that you would give us those details. MR MTYOBILE There was a bottle store that was bombed at Qoboqobo. MS MAYA Do you have an idea? MR MTYOBILE Yes, this bottle store was bombed out and then we were called. Then we found out that it was the police. MS MAYA Whose bottle store was it? MR MTYOBILE Ngwanya. MS MAYA Did you know the police that set out the mission? MR MTYOBILE We found out when there was a case. MS MAYA You said that you felt a dampness on your feet and thigh? Were you shot? MR MTYOBILE Yes. MS MAYA Did you get help? MR MTYOBILE I went to Mount Coke. MS MAYA For how long? MR MTYOBILE Two months. MS MAYA Do you have the documentation you got from the hospital? MR MTYOBILE I do not have any with me. MS MAYA Perhaps one of our investigators will come and ask for these documents. Did you eventually find out who it is that attacked, because you said you heard rumours that it was the police? MR MTYOBILE I don't have concrete evidence. MS MAYA Was there an investigation, an inquest? MR MTYOBILE No, not as much as I know. MS MAYA You mention somebody whom you think was connected to this attack because you said the Task Force was under his authority, who are you talking about? MR MTYOBILE The Elite Unit was led by Kwane Sebe and the other by Paulos. MS MAYA Where is Paulos now? MR MTYOBILE I don't know. MS MAYA Is Paulos his first name or his surname? MR MTYOBILE Surname. MS MAYA Do you know his first name? MR MTYOBILE No, I do not know. MS MAYA Do you have reasons for thinking that it was the organisations under Kwane Sebe that attacked you? MR MTYOBILE Yes. That is what I was told. MS MAYA How did these injuries affect your life? Are you able to work properly? MR MTYOBILE Yes. I did not like my place of work. I made applications for a transfer even before I was injured. Things were worse, they deteriorated after I was injured. MS MAYA Were there reasons why you did not like your place of work? MR MTYOBILE Yes. MS MAYA Perhaps you can enlighten us. MR MTYOBILE My intentions for joining the Police Force was that I would deal with criminals. Where I worked with the Riot Unit, I did not work with criminals. I would be woken up in the middle of the night to be asked to go to certain places, it is dangerous, therefore I did not like the job. Things were even worse after I was injured. I requested a transfer, I was not permitted. I then went to report at Whittlesea police station. MS MAYA You would report at Whittlesea police station? MR MTYOBILE Yes. MS MAYA When you say you'd be woken up in the middle of the night, what kind of places would you go to? MR MTYOBILE Places where there is disorder. MS MAYA You said you had been camping to guard Headmen? MR MTYOBILE Yes. Because the people of the community did not want that particular Headman. MS MAYA Was it a norm for policemen to be deployed to villages to guard Headmen? MR MTYOBILE It was the first time I had heard about it. MS MAYA Do you have a request as you have come before the Commission? MR MTYOBILE First of all, I would like to know the perpetrators because there is still a bullet in my body that could not be removed. My body has grenade remnants within it. Secondly I lost my job in an unclear manner. MS MAYA You lost your job as a policeman? MR MTYOBILE Yes. MS MAYA What happened? MR MTYOBILE In 1991, as I would go and report at Whittlesea because they would not give me a transfer in 1991, I had swollen up around my knee where the bullet is. I went to the Doctor at Hewu hospital. He X-rayed me. He said the cause was the bullet in my knee. If I wanted it to be removed, I would be crippled. He then gave me a few days leave, sick leave. When I came back to work, I was taken to trail, they tore the paper from the Doctor and I just sat after that. In April 1992 I was deployed to Whittlesea, I worked there a while. In August the was a board of enquiry, then I heard that there was a call that I had lost my job. MS MAYA Were you at the board of enquiry? Did you defend yourself? MR MTYOBILE Yes. MS MAYA Did you have a legal representative? MR MTYOBILE I did. MS MAYA Therefore you want us to investigate why you lost your job, is that all? MR MTYOBILE I want to see the perpetrators. If the Commission can, they must find out if I cannot go back to work. I apply and I never succeed because they think that there is nothing I can do because of my state of health. MS MAYA Is that all? MR MTYOBILE Yes. MS MAYA Thank you. I will hand you over to the Chairperson. Maybe he has more questions. Mr Siwayi, good afternoon. MR SIWAYI Good afternoon. First of all, why do you cheat me? These people gave me earphones, and now I can hear well. I am going to take these earphones home. MS MAYA Thank you. This incident that you want to talk about are things that happened to you in Peelton in 1991? Won't you tell us briefly what happened. MR SIWAYI I hope that what I am going to say is not going to hurt your feelings, because in court they always say I must not divulge everything. In 1991 I worked for the Headmen. We were called into Bisho by the Gqozo regime. They then called us and asked if we wanted the government. I said I have a house and I have livestock. MS MAYA What boers are they talking about? MR SIWAYI These are the people that killed me, I need documentation, it is in my pocket somewhere. MS MAYA Perhaps you can tell us about this stone that you are talking about. MR SIWAYI I am going to tell you now. So they said that I was destroying these boys, the (indistinct). The (indistinct) was against the government. I said that I need the government, a body in authority that I can report to if there is damage in my home, which is why I supported the government. I had to go give a report. We said in court that it is the Headmen and the government that is known. The government does not know anything about the (indistinct). The (indistinct) boys were against the Headmen and as a head they said I must bring my colleagues. I said that they are not there. They said that I must go to the Magistrate immediately to withdraw. I said I was not alone, I was with other men. Then we would go on the Monday. MS MAYA Who called you to the meeting? MR SIWAYI The (indistinct) boys, they fetched me from home. They said I must bring my colleagues and friends to go to King William's Town to withdraw the case. I said that the offices were not open on Saturday, they open on Monday. I said that I would go to them on Monday, first thing. They said I must go immediately. That is where the dispute started. Now these boys were attacking me. MS MAYA When were you injured and why? MR SIWAYI Because I could not go to King William's Town on the Saturday or alone, I had to go with the people and report it with them on the Monday. It was clear that they wanted to attack me. This is the time people were being necklaced. The meeting disintegrated. Some of them spoke up for me, saying that I was not to be necklaced. They carried on arguing. I stood strong and I said that whoever is going to put the tyre on me to burn me, we are going to die together. They cursed me, I cursed them back. I went home and slept the Saturday night. In the morning at eleven o'clock the next day, nobody was saying anything any more, my house was just being stoned. My windows broke down, even the doors. There was only one way. I said my children and my wife must hide under the bed. They said I must go out, I refused and I said you either will not be able to go into my house whilst I am still alive. They hit me with bricks, but my Lord was with me. MS MAYA You were injured? MR SIWAYI Yes, my ribs were fractured. I was taken to the Doctor and I slept at the hospital. I slept at the clinic and then I was taken to Grey hospital. I stayed there for three days. MS MAYA Was it your ribs that were fractured? MR SIWAYI Yes. MS MAYA When you came back from the hospital, how was the state of affairs at home? MR SIWAYI There were a lot of problems. When I was being beaten that night, I also fought. Some of them got in. They thought that they were going to kill me. They had left paraffin and petrol behind. You cannot just put a person alight, even if I come to you now and set a match alight, you will not burn, you need paraffin. They tried to set me alight, until their match sticks were finished. They said that they must go and get some petrol to burn me to death. Some of them were left behind and the others went and tried to get paraffin. The other said they could not be left with me, they were too scared. I walked around the house, I said to my family they must run away. I left in pyjamas and went to the police to report the matter. The police kept me until twelve o'clock the next day. MS MAYA Was there any damage at home? MR SIWAYI Listen, my house was already damaged. When I came back, the (indistinct) boys were there looking at me. My children ran towards me, saying I must not come. The (indistinct) boys were waiting for me. I said I am going home, there is nothing they can do to me. I went home. They came towards me and I was determined to fight. I went to the Headman's house and that house was set alight. Then I thought this is true, they are going to kill me. I ran away and I would fall, but get up and run. I ran about 20 metres and I fell down. They did not come to me, but they burnt my house down. I was still in pyjamas. They left me. They went and burn down my elder brother's house. MS MAYA You were still in pyjamas? MR SIWAYI Yes, I did not have any chance to change. My family also ran in night wear. MS MAYA When you were being attacked at night, were there people that you saw? MR SIWAYI It was full and people did not want me to go to them, I was all alone. Nobody wanted me with my pyjamas. We were given a place in Donqaba by the police in another village. I did not want to stay with the police, I built myself a place in Donqaba. This is what I am about here. My house was burnt down. I have listed these boys. It is Tabata who reduced the list, it was the whole village. What I am complaining about, is that they killed me, even the Magistrate acquitted them even though 26 of my goats are lost and my house was destroyed. Therefore this list ... MS MAYA Is it the people that attacked you? MR SIWAYI Yes. MS MAYA And there was a court case and they were acquitted? MR SIWAYI No, there was no court case, the case was kept on being postponed and then it was withdrawn. MS MAYA Which court was this? MR SIWAYI In Zwelitsha. MS MAYA At the Magistrate's court? MR SIWAYI Yes. MS MAYA Do you remember the Magistrate? MR SIWAYI It was Richard, the White man. MS MAYA Thank you. What requests do you have before the Commission? MR SIWAYI This is my request. Apparently they said that there should be reconciliation, I quite like that idea. But there should be compensation. My heart is bleeding. The law says that a man cannot revenge, I have not revenged, because I respect the government. I have the right to go into each of their houses, and beat them up. But I respect the government. Even where I live now, it is difficult. The people don't want me there, they are chasing me away. MS MAYA Did you give up your house? MR SIWAYI Yes, I did. I did not want to go back to Peelton. MS MAYA Do you know what the status quo is in Peelton, would you perhaps be able to go back? MR SIWAYI I can't go to Peelton now, I built another house. Do you think I should go back to my enemies? MS MAYA Your requests sir? MR SIWAYI If the government can, the perpetrators must be arrested. If they can't arrest them, but the government must do something for me, I had a huge home and I could not save anything. They took my livestock, sold it. If they sold it or ate it. The policemen that were there at the time, the police did not try to investigate the matter enough. It is the people that went to King William's Town, toyi-toying that gave us all the trouble. They came and burnt out houses down. MS MAYA Thank you sir. MR SIWAYI Therefore I need help from the Commission. MS MAYA According to our documents you are born on the 15th of May 1915, is that so? MR SIWAYI That is the truth. It is just that I am strong, the Lord is with me. CHAIRMAN Sandi? ADV SANDI Mr Mtyobile, I have questions for you. I think that we are fortunate that you've come before us as part of the Ciskeian Police Force. Maybe you can clarify a few things for us in connection with the Ciskeian Police Force. When did you start? MR MTYOBILE In 1986. ADV SANDI When did you stop? MR MTYOBILE 1992. ADV SANDI What was your rank? MR MTYOBILE I was a Constable. ADV SANDI Were you in Qongqweni? You said that there were fights, who was fighting? MR MTYOBILE I am not sure, but the entire village was in disharmony and there was fighting. Our tent was not far from the Headman's house. ADV SANDI Were you given particular instructions? MR MTYOBILE We were given instructions to look after the Headman's place. ADV SANDI Were you armed so that you could protect yourself? MR MTYOBILE There was teargas. We had teargas and pistols. ADV SANDI Did you think that there would be a certain group, resistance group that would attack you? MR MTYOBILE We did not think that we would be attacked. We thought that the Headman would be attacked. ADV SANDI You never thought that perhaps Umkonto We Sizwe would attack you? MR MTYOBILE No. ADV SANDI Who was the Commander of the Unit at the time? MR MTYOBILE Zwahlana. ADV SANDI Is he still in the Force? MR MTYOBILE I think he is in Port Elizabeth. I think he is in Port Elizabeth. ADV SANDI You said that there were rumours that it was a certain man who was leading the Elite Unit in Ciskei who sent people to attack you? MR MTYOBILE It is my colleagues who rumoured this after I had gotten out of hospital. ADV SANDI Was this so that you would think that you were attacked by the ANC? MR MTYOBILE Yes. ADV SANDI If that had succeeded, you would have thought that it is the ANC that attacked you and then what? MR MTYOBILE I don't know to hide the atrocity they had committed. MS MAYA Perhaps I should ask the question in another manner. Are you talking about Kwane Sebe? MR MTYOBILE Yes, he was the head of the Elite. ADV SANDI You say it is him who planned so that you could be attacked? MR MTYOBILE Yes. ADV SANDI What was his intention? MR MTYOBILE He wanted us to be anti-ANC. ADV SANDI Was there disharmony within the Police Force? MR MTYOBILE Yes. ADV SANDI What was it all about? MR MTYOBILE We did not know what the Elite Unit was all about, we perceived them as our superiors therefore we were not connected to them. ADV SANDI The man that led your Unit, did he work together well with the Elite Unit that belonged to Kwane Sebe? Were they aligned? MR MTYOBILE Even if he did not work well with him, he could not voice that out because the Elite Unit was like the government at the time. ADV SANDI Therefore there was no conflict between these two Units? MR MTYOBILE No. ADV SANDI Thank you. CHAIRMAN Thank you for bringing your evidence before the Commission. We've heard your requests before the Commission - we will look into them. You can take your seats and we are going to call the last people to the stage.