hrvtrans HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATIONS, SUBMISSIONS QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS 1997-05-13 KING WILLIAM'S TOWN 2 NODIDA J. ZAMKANA https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=55517&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/hrvtrans/kwtown/zamkana.htm CHAIRMAN: Nodida Jane Zamkana. NODIDA JANE ZAMKANA (sworn states) REVD XUNDU Thank you, Mr Chairperson, she has been properly sworn in. MS CRICHTON Can you hear mr Mrs Zamkana? Are you comfortable? MRS ZAMKANA Yes, I can year you. Yes, Ma'am. MS CRICHTON Mrs Zamkana, the statement that you have given to us concerns a search by the police for your son. This went on over quite a period of time and I would like you to tell us a little bit about your son before you start telling us about what happened to you. What was his name? MRS ZAMKANA Madoda Zamkana. MS CRICHTON And how old was he? MRS ZAMKANA I cannot remember. MS CRICHTON Was he still a student? MRS ZAMKANA Yes, he was at school. MS CRICHTON And was he a member of a political organisation or a student organisation? MRS ZAMKANA He was an ANC member. MS CRICHTON Right, now would you then begin by telling us about that first visit that you had at your house of police searching for him. MRS ZAMKANA The police arrived at home, White police, it was at night. They pushed the door down, they said they were looking for Madoda Menesi, these are my sons names. I told them that he was not there, they said I would tell them. They said that I must take them to his room. We went to his room because I stayed in a rondawel. There is a bigger house with three rooms. There were six police, all White policemen. When I got there, they asked where he was. I said that he left in the afternoon, I do not know where he is. They slapped me, they kicked me, I wet myself. They said that the truth is coming, that is why I was wetting myself. I said I did not know where he was, he had left in the afternoon. They left. They said I must go back to my rondawel. I went in. The next day they came, four White men, they were looking for Madoda again. They would wake me up every night. They would beat me up. They would not find him, I would not know where he was. The third time Vusumzi and Sipho Ntebe also came in the middle of the night. They came into my hut, pushed the door down, woke me up. I could not sleep well, I could not even go to other people's houses, because I did not want to endanger other people's lives. I became an insomniac. They said that we must go to my son's room which was painted red. Vusumzi had a big rifle, Ntebe as well. Ntebe did not do anything to me. When Vusumzi would ask for my son and I would say I do not know, they said that they were going to beat me up. I said I had no other truth, Vusumzi slapped me, beat me with a rifle at the back, at the back of my head, I bled. They asked where he would go for holidays. I said that he usually goes to my sister in Mdantsane and I've never been to Mdantsane. Vusumzi would slap me and kick me, Ntebe never touched me. Ntebe then said they must go. Vusumzi said he is taking me to Mdantsane to point out my son. We went to Mdantsane, this is at night, the three of us. Vusumzi was drunk. When we got to the main road, it had been raining the previous day. Vusumzi would turn back, hit me with the rifle. When we got to the main road, there was a whole lot of water. Just before he was going to hit me with the rifle again, he slipped and fell on the water, he said that he was going to really hit me then, because I had been fighting, he alleged. A police van approached with two White policemen. Vusumzi took me from place to place, he was at the back with me. He kept on hitting me with his rifle. When we got there, there were two White police. Vusumzi took a sail, put it over my face. He said that I was going to tell the truth and we were going to Mdantsane. Vusumzi put something over my head. After a while he took it off. They insisted that I knew where my son was. I said that you said we are going to Mdantsane, I was not well at the time because I don't even know Mdantsane. He put this thing over my head again. He again insisted that I knew where my son was. He put this thing over my head yet again. When I thought in my heart that I am going to die and I don't know who is going to feed my child, because I had no husband, that thought still stifles me. I was thinking about my child, Vusumzi threw me onto the floor. Vusumzi continued to ask for my son. The two White policemen were laughing. This one Coloured man who passed away said that what you are doing, is terrible, because parents don't know what children do. MS CRICHTON Mrs Zamkana, can I interrupt you here. They told you that they were going to take you to Mdantsane and they stopped along the way. Did they stop at some offices along the way or were they just stopping in the open veld? MRS ZAMKANA There were offices, I don't know what kind of offices. I would try to breathe and what they put on my head, would stifle me. The one policeman asked Vusumzi the time and he said it was three o'clock. They asked me where I was going to sleep and I said I would sleep where I work as a domestic worker. MS CRICHTON Mrs Zamkana, I am going to interrupt you again. When you got to those offices that you don't know what they were, is that where the two White policemen joined Vusumzi and continued with putting the bag over your head? MRS ZAMKANA Yes. They were just standing there, it is Vusumzi who tortured me. MS CRICHTON Now, as a result of this, you decided to take action. What did you do? MRS ZAMKANA The one asked the other what the time was and he said it is three o'clock, they asked where I was going to sleep and I said I would sleep at my boss' place. Ntebe then said I could sleep at his place. I went with Ntebe, when we got there, he did not do anything to me. He prepared a place to sleep, he said he would wake me up at five, so that I could go and wash and wait for them at the gate at the office. He said that he did as he said. I went home, I thought about this, I thought why must I be arrested, why must I go back to the police when I've done nothing, so I did not go. After a week, I went to Tabata in King William's Town, I told him what happened, he said he is busy, but he would follow up my case. Before he arrived, I was called into the office. They said that they are going to discuss my case together with Vusumzi. There were six White men and Vusumzi, his brother, his father, I was alone. They asked me what had happened, I told them. They said I was drunk. I said I had not been drinking, it was a Thursday, I don't drink Brandy. I only drink Xhoza beer weekends. They asked if I had a witness, so I said I did not have a witness, I was alone even at home. MS CRICHTON Mrs Zamkana, again I interrupt you. You are not at the Tabata attorney's office and you say they called in Vusumzi. Is that correct, into the office? MRS ZAMKANA I don't know. MS CRICHTON It was not at the same time? This was now in the court that Vusumzi was called in? MRS ZAMKANA It was not in court, we were in a house with red curtains. It was not a court of law. We were standing, there were no chairs. MS CRICHTON Was there any kind of Magistrate, somebody presiding? MRS ZAMKANA I don't know. MS CRICHTON Who was chairing the meeting? MRS ZAMKANA I don't know those White people. I know that Vusumzi was there, his younger brother and his father. He said that they were his witnesses even though they were not there that particular night. MS CRICHTON What was the result of that particular time in that room? MRS ZAMKANA They said that the case is over, I am a drunkard. So I said I do not drink in the middle of the week and I do not drink Brandy, I only take Xhoza beer, they then withdrew the case. I went home, I was scared to go. I would sleep on the floor, I was afraid, terrified of Vusumzi. I would sleep on the floor. I could not stay... MS CRICHTON Mrs Zamkana, I can understand how you must have felt at that stage, but I need to ask you now to go back to that room again. Was anybody from the attorney's office there in that room? MRS ZAMKANA No. If my Attorney was there, they would not have withdrawn the case. MS CRICHTON So you reported this matter to the Attorney, did you or did you not? MRS ZAMKANA Yes, I did. I needed his representation. But when they called me, they called me on my own. I don't know if they corresponded with him at all. I just went home after that. MS CRICHTON So there has been no follow up since then? MRS ZAMKANA No. It has been quiet. I don't want to start this whole mess up again. I was afraid. I would hear the police van coming, I would go sleep on the floor, I was even afraid to walk around Stutterheim. When the whole thing cooled down, I was too scared to stir it up again. MS CRICHTON Mrs Zamkana, I want to ask you now how you actually are medically, your health, what is your health like now? MRS ZAMKANA I am all right. I just suffer from fear over time, I am nervous. I don't want to go anywhere, I am too scared. MS CRICHTON And your son? MRS ZAMKANA My son was arrested. After he had come back from Johannesburg he was arrested, he stayed in jail for three years. He now works, I don't know his full story, I was just talking about myself, but he was arrested in Johannesburg. They threatened to murder him. They said they would kill him because he was spoiling the land. MS CRICHTON Is there anything else you wish to add to your testimony before you tell us what you are hoping the Commission will do for you? MRS ZAMKANA I think I have divulged all. I have always wanted to talk about these things because they were bottled up, I am glad I have been able to talk like this today, perhaps I will be healed. MS CRICHTON Mrs Zamkana, I am grateful that you have been able to talk as well because I am sure that by talking, some of that fear will evaporate. I pray that that is so. Thank you. CHAIRMAN Mr Sandi? ADV SANDI Thank you Mr Chairman. Mrs Zamkana, perhaps before I ask these questions, I would like to clarify according to the law set by Parliament, when we listen to these stories, we are supposed to ask questions so that we can get a full picture in connection with what happened at whatever time and whatever place. Also incidents that occurred before the person's incident, meaning that the status quo, did you listen to the other witnesses and how the police in Stutterheim handled themselves? MRS ZAMKANA Yes, I was listening. ADV SANDI Did you hear what they said? MRS ZAMKANA Yes. ADV SANDI As a person from Stutterheim, what is your opinion of the Stutterheim police? MRS ZAMKANA They were cruel. ADV SANDI When people had problems, would the people go to the police station to report their cases? MRS ZAMKANA No, people would not go because you cannot go and report a matter to a policeman about another policeman. ADV SANDI And those people that were brave and went for help to the police station, what would happen to them? Would they get the help they needed? MRS ZAMKANA Well, I don't know, but I did not want to go and report these cases. I was fearful, I was fearful of anybody, I would just stay in my yard. But all the police were wicked. ADV SANDI You said that the police were violent as well? MRS ZAMKANA Yes, they were violent, you could not go from one police to another to ask for help. ADV SANDI What did they do? MRS ZAMKANA They would assault people. ADV SANDI Is it not the police that is supposed to protect the people? MRS ZAMKANA Well, they were not protective at that time. ADV SANDI Mrs Zamkana, are there police that you know of that were arrested from Stutterheim for all these atrocities? MRS ZAMKANA No. ADV SANDI In your statement you say that a certain policeman that was supposed to be your witness, refused to stand for you, he was not called. MRS ZAMKANA This is Ntebe. ADV SANDI Is it Ntebe that was mentioned here? MRS ZAMKANA Yes, he is the one who passed away. On that day it was Vusumzi, his brother and himself. ADV SANDI Ntebe had not passed away at that time? MRS ZAMKANA No, he was still alive. But I had heard that he had resigned from the police force. He had not passed away at that time, however. ADV SANDI Thank you Mrs Zamkana, thank you Mr Chairperson. CHAIRMAN Thank you Mrs Zamkana, you have talked about a Xhoza house. What type of house are you talking about? MRS ZAMKANA I am talking about a rondawel, a hut. CHAIRMAN Secondly, in reverence to these policemen, Sipho Ntebe whom you said did not hit you, you said that when Vusumzi and his family were there and you were discussing this matter, Ntebe did not come? MRS ZAMKANA He was not there, because I know him. I could have identified him. CHAIRMAN According to your statement he refused to give evidence. Do you want that to be corrected? MRS ZAMKANA Yes, it was a mistake. CHAIRMAN You say that six White policemen came to you at home asking you about your son. Do you know their names? MRS ZAMKANA No. CHAIRMAN The one person you knew is Vusumzi Kule? MRS ZAMKANA Yes. CHAIRMAN And Sipho Ntebe? MRS ZAMKANA Yes. CHAIRMAN How come you knew Vusumzi Kule? MRS ZAMKANA He stays in the same village. CHAIRMAN Did you have a dispute? MRS ZAMKANA No, there were no problems. CHAIRMAN Where is Vusumzi Kule? MRS ZAMKANA He is around. He still works in Stutterheim. CHAIRMAN How do you feel when you see him? MRS ZAMKANA I don't feel bad. CHAIRMAN When you have a problem that needs a policeman, are you able to go to him? MRS ZAMKANA No, I cannot go to him, but he greets me and I greet back. CHAIRMAN Mr Sandi? ADV SANDI Mrs Zamkana, have you heard of a Station Commander? MRS ZAMKANA Yes, but I don't know what a Station Commander is all about. ADV SANDI Do you know if there was a Station Commander in Stutterheim? MRS ZAMKANA I would hear about him, but I never saw him. ADV SANDI According to your knowledge was he interested in the actions of the police? MRS ZAMKANA No. ADV SANDI Did you hear of a Station Commander trying to bring order to the behaviour of the police? MRS ZAMKANA No. When these things happened, we never thought they would happen to us. ADV SANDI How old do you think Vusumzi is? Do you think maybe his is as old as one of your children? MRS ZAMKANA Madoda is younger than Vusumzi. ADV SANDI Would he be young enough to be your child? MRS ZAMKANA Yes. ADV SANDI How did you feel when you were assaulted by someone who was young enough to be your own child? MRS ZAMKANA It was terrible. When he was assaulting me, I had to call him father because of the way he was treating me. ADV SANDI Thank you Mr Chairperson. CHAIRMAN Mrs Zamkana, you've made requests before the Commission, is that so? MRS ZAMKANA Yes. CHAIRMAN What did you request? MRS ZAMKANA If the Commission could help with my children's education. CHAIRMAN How old are they? MRS ZAMKANA The one was born in 1981 and the other in 1990. CHAIRMAN Ma'am, ours is to investigate the matter and take your requests before the President. However, right now we would like to thank you for the evidence that you have given before the Commission. You look a dignified mother in the Xhoza community. What you have told us today of your torture, even as an elderly lady, we've heard about his form of torture where a plastic bag would be put over a person's head for suffocation, it is painful to hear that this happened to you as well. Also the fact that this matter was discussed in a court that was false where you had no representation. In this country this was common. Thank you for having come here today and giving us a clear story, divulging all to a point where you wept. We trust that even before (indistinct) today. It is sad that Sipho Ntebe passed away, because we would have liked to thank him, because even amongst the police of Stutterheim at the time, someone was kind enough to show you a bit of kindness. Thank you, you may step down. We would ask Mr Redpath to come forward please. Is Qalisele here? He is definitely not here Mr Redpath. MR REDPATH Mr Chairperson, my response on behalf of the implicated person, Vusumzi Kule is the same as I've given twice this morning. To indicate the witness' version has now expanded to include a minimum of two other policemen who were at least present when she was allegedly suffocated. That would render them to be alleged perpetrators as well, we would need to investigate that. Mr Chairperson, I do however have some documentary information for the Commission in respect of the witness Zamkana's allegation that she was assaulted and the manner of the assault, the alleged perpetrator was charged for this offence, he was tried before a court of law, a proper court of law and he was acquitted. I have the necessary correspondence in relation to that case which I would seek to make available to the Commission as of today. I have nothing further at this stage. CHAIRMAN Thank you very much for that assistance Mr Redpath and thank you for your appearance before the Commission today. That concludes the matters for today, does it? MR REDPATH I have one more. CHAIRMAN One more after lunch? We have to adjourn for lunch now. I am sorry to be detaining you further, but we will take that as the first matter after lunch. MR REDPATH As the Committee pleases Mr Chairman. CHAIRMAN Thank you very much. We adjourn until two o'clock. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS UNTIL TWO O'CLOCK .