hrvtrans HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATIONS, SUBMISSIONS QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS 1997-05-14 KING WILLIAM'S TOWN ZODWA PATSA https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=55520&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/hrvtrans/kwtown/zwlpats.htm CASE EC0930/96KWT HELD AT DAY 3 JEREMIAH NDUDULA (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON Could I find out whether Mr, Mrs Adams Black... Is Mr Dorrington here ?. Thank you. Could I call in also Mr Zodwa Patsa. ZODWA PATSA (sworn states). REV XUNDU MRS PATSA It was in 1985. My son, Vuyani Patsa passed away. He was at school at Nompendulo. He was doing standard 6. I was at home and I heard someone calling out in a loud speaker, somebody saying that all the parents with children at Nompendulo must go to the police station with R40-00. REV XUNDU The name of the school please ?. MRS PATSA REV XUNDU MRS PATSA There were other people looking for their children as well who had not come back from the school. When I got there, I got information that lifesavers would go and look for the children at the river. I must go home. When I got home, the father phoned, asked how the previous night was. He said that he could not sleep the previous night. He said that he had the feeling that his own child had died. Apparently, 3 girls were found by the lifesavers. I phoned Radio Ciskei so that they could help me find my child. I found my child on the third week. REV XUNDU Was he found in the river ?. MRS PATSA He was found in the river. REV XUNDU Where was he found ? MRS PATSA REV XUNDU Therefore you suspect that this child pushed at the river banks the previous night before he was found. MRS PATSA Yes. MR XUNDU Was there a court case ?. Did you go to a legal representative ? MRS PATSA There were young men that would come to my home that said they were UDF members. They said that Vugano was a UDF member. They were then collecting money that they would take to Smith, so that he could represent us legally. REV XUNDU Did you take a statement to Smith ?. MRS PATSA Yes, I did. REV XUNDU What did you say to the statement and what happened ?. MRS PATSA We found Vuyani on the Wednesday and on the Thursday we had to bury him. I forgot to say that actually it was on a Tuesday that we found him and were forced to bury him on the Thursday. The police forced us. REV XUNDU Did you bury him ?. MRS PATSA REV XUNDU Did the police not bring any disorder into your home ? MRS PATSA REV XUNDU Was there a death certificate ? What did the doctor say ? MRS PATSA REV XUNDU MRS PATSA small business. I can no longer have that. My husband was a taxi-man but he cannot work well either. I need the Commission to help me with some form of compensation and I also need a tombstone. REV XUNDU MRS PATSA No Sir. REV XUNDU MRS PATSA No. I would like to know who murdered my child and to know who had my child in custody and why. Thank you. REV XUNDU Jeremiah Ndudula. Mr Chairperson, please wait Sir. Sir I would like you briefly to tell us your story. I will then ask you questions to help you with your testimony. What was happening in the Township during this time?. MR NDUDULA Mr Chairperson, in 1985, before June, after our mid-year exams. REV XUNDU Is it 1985 or 1984 because in your statement you mentioned 1984. MR NDUDULA I thought you said that I must start from 1985. Can I start in 1984 ?. REV XUNDU Yes. MR NDUDULA to be released. I moved from Nonceba because of harassment, I then went to Nompendulo High School in 1985. When I already started at Nompendulo High School we tried to work together with the comrades who were at the school. The police did not stop harassing us because some of the security police, some of them were Mr Kolela Shebine Moss and others. They tried to assault me and harass me all the time. I could not stay at home but they could not find me because I was not staying at home. They were looking for me all the time. In 1985, May, after our mid-year exams, the students were about to go to their holidays. They tried to boycott classes. There was a campaign, we were trying to install and SRC in our schools. We had negotiations with the Management, the Police, but it was later decided to close the schools but nothing happened at that time. We were harassed all this time. The police were looking for us but unfortunately for them, they could not find us. REV XUNDU Excuse me Sir, I want to go back to where you say that you had a meeting at Dutch Reformed Church. You were arrested in Mdanstane. You appeared in a court of law. Is that correct ?. MR NDUDULA REV XUNDU MR NDUDULA On the 19th of July, when the schools were re-opened, we started a boycott again in our schools, demanding SRC. On the 22nd, we were not attending school at that time, but we were within the premises of the school. We were boycotting classes but we were attending school. On the 22nd, the Ciskeian Police were surrounding our school in the morning. They came with their trucks. We tried to negotiate with them, together with their inspectors. They told us to leave the school premises. We told them, we cannot do that because what they will do to us if we can leave the school premises. They will assault us. While we were still busy negotiating with them, at about 12 midday, one police by the name of Mr Tsio, together with Mr Ndwengo, another policeman. REV XUNDU Mr Tsio, was he a Magistrate or a police ?. MR NDUDULA He was a security policeman. REV XUNDU You also mentioned a Magistrate. MR NDUDULA REV XUNDU At this time, where were you ?. MR NDUDULA I followed them near the sports ground, to the sports ground since the Buffalo is next to the sports ground. We saw that the students were assaulted by the police, some of them were 14 years old and some of them were less than 14 years old. I then went back. The police took us and they locked us in the classrooms. You will be taken to the classrooms, 200 of us will be taken to one classroom and they will lock us there. They then took us to the police station. I changed my name, because they knew me as Jeremiah, I gave them my Xhosa name. Some of our leaders survived this and they tried to contact attorneys. REV XUNDU Were you arrested on that day ?. MR NDUDULA Yes, we were arrested. We were taken to the police station. They took a loudspeaker and they went to the township, saying that the children were arrested. People have come with, have to bring R40-00. REV XUNDU Were you also released ? MR NDUDULA Yes, I was released because I told my mother not to call me by name Jeremiah, that why, how I managed to be released. REV XUNDU How were you violated ? When were you violated after that ? MR NDUDULA After that, we were not happy in the township. There was chaos in the township. In August and October in 1985, we were still discussing the issue of going back to school in the Dutch Reformed Church. We had a meeting there. We were trying to discuss this issue. The police, the Ciskeian police came in. I was also arrested on that occasion. We were taken to Mdanstane prison. We were about 410. REV XUNDU Did you notice any police ? MR NDUDULA Major Ungani was the one who was commanding them. He was a Commander at the time. REV XUNDU Is he still around ? MR NDUDULA Yes, he is still around. In 1986 I was also harassed by the police. The situation was not stable at that time. After March of that year, I was at a conference of the NECC in Durban. We got a report back that we must go back to school. We tried to go back to school. REV XUNDU Let us now go back to 1987. You were then arrested again. MR NDUDULA REV XUNDU Did you know these people before ? MR NDUDULA REV XUNDU Is Kolela a first name or a surname ? MR NDUDULA What was painful is that, all this time we were not sleeping at our homes. We were students at the time. REV XUNDU Thank you then. Were you able to continue with your education under such circumstances ? MR NDUDULA Yes, I managed to complete my matric. REV XUNDU What would you like us to report to the President about what happened?. In other words, what are your requests to this Commission ?. What would you like us to do for the community as you have already mentioned in your document. You mentioned a memorial stone. MR NDUDULA REV XUNDU Thank you , what is your other request ? MR NDUDULA I think that it would be important for the community of Zwelitsha to have a Community Centre. REV XUNDU Did you lay a charge, or did you contact any attorneys concerning this matter ? MR NDUDULA We contacted Mr Thabata, concerning this. REV XUNDU What is happening in your case ? MR NDUDULA Nothing is happening at this time and I would also like the Commission to follow this, to investigate, especially at what happened at Nompendulo. We would like a case to be opened, to be, so that we can find answers at what was happening there. REV XUNDU Thank you, Mr Chairperson, let me hand over to you. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Tiny Maya ? MS MAYA Thank you, Mr Chairperson. Mr Ndudula, I have few questions for you to try and get some clarity in certain issues. In these different occasions you said that you were arrested in 1984, 1985 and 1987. You also mentioned various names of people. I would like you to specify who arrested you in 1984. Who were involved ?. MR NDUDULA In 1984. In 1984, the police who were involved who were the security police in Ciskei, were Moss, Mashibeni, Kolela, Archi and Ulani. MS MAYA In 1985. Let us concentrate on the 3 of them. In 1985, were they involved? MR NDUDULA They were part of the investigating team. They were investigating people who were politically active. MS MAYA These people, they arrested you, they tortured you, in 1984. Were you tortured in 1984 or were you assaulted ? MR NDUDULA They were just harassing me. In 1984, we were arrested as a group. MS MAYA Did they torture you ?. MR NDUDULA No. MS MAYA In 1985, in 1985, they did not assault you ?. MR NDUDULA No. MS MAYA In 1987 ? MR NDUDULA It was in 1986 and in 1987. Kolela got me in 1987, others, they did not get me. MS MAYA What did Kolela do to you in 1987 ? MR NDUDULA He took me to Tamarha in 1987, he left me in Zone 6. In Zone 6, you would know who was beating you, because they would blindfold you with the tee-shirts of UDF. It is difficult to identify them. MS MAYA MR NDUDULA He arrested me. MS MAYA You did not see him assaulting you ?. MR NDUDULA MS MAYA But you believe that he was one of the people who were assaulting you. MR NDUDULA Yes, I think so, as he was the person who arrested me. MS MAYA MR NDUDULA No. MS MAYA After he took you to Zone 6, what did he do to you, what else did he do to you ? MR NDUDULA MS MAYA Did he torture you ? MR NDUDULA They were looking for me all the time. MS MAYA When were you released in 1987 ? MR NDUDULA They took me to Zone 6 at about 8 in the morning. They took me from Tamarha to Zone 6 at that time. I was released after 4. MS MAYA All this time, were they assaulting you ? MR NDUDULA They assaulted me for a certain period and they stopped, because the students were toytoying in Amasele. They had to go there. MS MAYA How were they torturing you ?. MR NDUDULA They would tie you in a chair and I was tortured by electric shocks while I was blindfolded. MS MAYA Where did they electrify you ? MR NDUDULA In my hands and in my legs. MS MAYA Who did you see ?. Who was doing this to you ? MR NDUDULA The problem is that I did not know all the police who were in the security force in Zone 6. It is difficult for me to say their names, but I can identify them if I can see them. MS MAYA You mentioned Kolela. Did you see him hit these people ?. MR NDUDULA Yes, I would see him sometimes. MS MAYA What about Moss, what did he do to you ? MR NDUDULA Moss was harassing me. MS MAYA How ? MR NDUDULA MS MAYA After that, did he do anything to you ?. MR NDUDULA MS MAYA In other words, they would go and look for you at home, but they would not find you. MR NDUDULA Yes. MS MAYA Moss did not assault you in any way ?. MR NDUDULA No. MS MAYA What about Mashibini ?. MR NDUDULA Mashibini did not arrest me either, because I was running away from him. MS MAYA When you mentioned their names, you were just mentioning people who were looking for you at home, except for Kolela, because you said that Kolela was part of the people who were torturing you. MR NDUDULA I mentioned these names, because I thought that these people were the ones that were harassing me in my life. I could not stay at home like any other children, that is why I mentioned their names, because I knew them. MS MAYA Thank you, Mr Ndudula. Thank you, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Mr Dorrington you are appearing for Mr Kolela, Mashibini and Mr Moss. Is that correct ? MR DORRINGTON That is correct, Mr Chairman, if I may, at this stage ... (interrupted) CHAIRPERSON MR DORRINGTON CHAIRPERSON MR DORRINGTON Mr Chairman, if I may also just place in... CHAIRPERSON Just like to place Mr Kolela under oath. Mr Kolela, could you stand up. MR KOLELA (sworn states) MR DORRINGTON CHAIRPERSON Do you think it would make any difference if we allowed you some time to, to consult and take this matter as a first matter after lunch ?. MR DORRINGTON Mr Chairman, from what I understand, my client is actually happy to answer the questions himself. CHAIRPERSON Straight away, ok. MR DORRINGTON CHAIRPERSON Thank you very much. Thank you for your co-operation, Mr Dorrington. We will require the, Mr Kolela to just read very quickly, the statement into the record and then we will raise questions on the, on the statement. MR KOLELA MR DORRINGTON MR KOLELA MR DORRINGTON Ok, just tell them that. MR KOLELA CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mr Kolela. Mr Ntsiki Sandi. MR SANDI Thank you, Mr Chairman. Mr Kolela as a police who had a duty to interrogate people, what methods would you use in this process of interrogating people ?. MR KOLELA MR SANDI MR KOLELA I did not see any other, but I would hear if the police intimidated someone and somebody would open a case and the police be arrested This would not happen. MR SANDI MR KOLELA No. MR SANDI Would this happen before you ?. MR KOLELA MR SANDI Would you hear screams and cries when somebody, if someone is being tortured when interrogated ?. MR KOLELA MR SANDI MR KOLELA MR SANDI If this would happen before you in your presence what would you do ? MR KOLELA If this would happen in my presence, the Commanding Officer in each office would be there. If I go and report to the Commanding Officer and he does not anything about it, I can go to someone with even more authority. It was my prerogative to report such cases. MR SANDI Thank you, Mr Chairperson, even if I have more questions, because of the time, I will cut short. CHAIRPERSON MR KOLELA CHAIRPERSON You never heard about the security police torturing people, even in the newspapers ? MR KOLELA Please repeat your question. CHAIRPERSON MR KOLELA I did hear about this. CHAIRPERSON So you thought they were being deceptive. MR KOLELA CHAIRPERSON MR KOLELA MR DORRINGTON CHAIRPERSON Mr Sandi ?. MR SANDI I thank you, Mr Chairman. Mr Dorrington, I think I must draw your attention to the provisions of Section 3.1(a) of the Promotion of National Unity and Reconciliation Act. In terms of that Section which is the core of our statutory mandate, we have to establish as complete a picture as possible of the gross human rights violations that have been committed during the given period, so you may find that from time to time, we will ask questions which in your mind, as a lawyer, you will think such questions are irrelevant. Thank you. MR DORRINGTON CHAIRPERSON Ok. Thank you very much, Mr Dorrington and thank you Mr Kolela. Would you come with ... MR SANDI So you never worked for the Security Police altogether ? MR KOLELA MR SANDI How long did you work for the Security Branch ? MR KOLELA CHAIRPERSON Where were you based at the Security Branch, was it in Zwelitsha ?. MR KOLELA Yes. I would deal with members of the ANC, in exile, information. CHAIRPERSON What about Mr Mashibini and Mr Moss and Kolela. Do you know them ? MR KOLELA CHAIRPERSON Did you work with them at the Security Branch in Zwelitsha ? MR KOLELA Yes, we were all together there. CHAIRPERSON And, do you think that Mr Ndudula has a reason to choose you, alone and say that you tortured him ?. MR KOLELA CHAIRPERSON MR KOLELA CHAIRPERSON MR DORRINGTON Thank you, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON HEARING ADJOURNS