hrvtrans 1 A B KGOBADI, HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATIONS, SUBMISSIONS QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS 1996-07-08 MMABATHO 1 ANDRIES B KGOBADI https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=55660&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/hrvtrans/mmabatho/kgobadi.htm MR RANDERA Andries Bangane Kgobadi, will you please come to the table? Andries, welcome. I see you have brought somebody else with you. Would you please like to introduce him to us? MR KGOBADI My father. MR RANDERA Andries, you are going to be telling us also about what happened to you personally in 1985. Before I hand over to Mr Tom Manthata will you please stand up and take the oath? ANDRIES KGOBADI (sworn states) MR RANDERA Thank you Andries. I'm going to ask Mr Tom Manthata to lead you. MR MANTHATA Andries, will you please proceed and tell us what happened to you and tell us about the police by the time of this case. MR KGOBADI Yes, I can do so. It was in 1985 in June, it was about on the 18th. The police arrived at home in the evening and they kicked the door open. And they were looking for me. And there were many police vans outside. Some of them were Hippos and Landrovers. Other cars were in the yard already and the others were surrounding the house. The policemen who kicked the door open were Strydom and Brand. From there, after taking me we went to James Mowene. When we arrived at James Mowene's house MMABATHO HEARING TRC/NORTH WEST 2 A B KGOBADI they opened the van and they asked for Nono, whether he is this Kgobadi. And from there we went to the police station. When we arrived at the police station they put a sort of a pillowcase on my head and they put me in another room which is the size of a toilet and that bag was sprayed with the teargas inside. And the toilet was also sprayed with the teargas. So that I could give statement on what they told me to say. And from there - so that they could leave me. I told them that I was telling the truth. And from there we went to another office where they said I should tell the truth. What I told them was that I don't know anything about what happened. And then they made me sit on a chair. They handcuffed me and they took an electric shock and plugged it in a door plug and they started shocking me so that I could tell the truth. And it was Brand who was doing this by that time - who was with Strydom. And on the following day we went to court. When we arrived at the court I told them that I was not guilty and those guys were also present at the court. And they could see what was happening there. From there they said I must tell James Mowene that he shouldn't see himself guilty because we were in anyway not guilty. In the evening again they came to pick me up at the cell and they went to beat me up with police boots. They kicked me on the ribs and they shocked me with the electric shocks again. In which case there was a problem about Masuke who was staying at Maoka. On that evening they shocked me again and the following day we went to the court again. And once again in court I did not find myself guilty. MMABATHO HEARING TRC/NORTH WEST 3 A B KGOBADI From the court again in the evening they used the electric shocks again on us so that we could give the statements that they wanted us to give. He sent our case to the Regional Court. And from that case I got two years from 1986 on the 31st of January. Before we were sentenced we were given a bail of about R150, on condition that we have to go and sign at the police station and sign it at 5 o'clock, because they were afraid that we would run away. I was also signing together with Phonono and the other guy called Steven Makalo, because those were the three of us who were involved in this case of public violence regarding Masolo. When I signed on the 27th of November another policeman, called Botes, who we found at the charge office, he grabbed me and asked me whether I was Andries. And he grabbed me by the neck and put me in the charge office. After putting me in the charge office I told him that I was only there to sign and I was asking why he was pulling me. He never told me anything. He put me there. After a while he put me in another office behind the charge office. Whilst I was sitting there another policeman came there. They were numerous in number and I wasn't sure whether they were from Vryburg. When they arrived they kicked me on the spot. At about 7 o'clock they took me to another office, where there was a huge guy who cross-questioned me, asking me whether I know I am apprehended. I told him I do not why I am apprehended or arrested because I never did anything wrong. And he said to me I must tell him the truth about what I am doing there because I am not apprehended. I told him I do not know why those people were apprehending me, because I MMABATHO HEARING TRC/NORTH WEST 4 A B KGOBADI only came here to sign. And he said if I do not tell the truth the white policemen will come to me and question me. When I was there Major Swanepoel came. He is a policeman who does not work in Vryburg. It was the first time I saw him, but he was a major by rank. And he forced me to talk and I told him that I do not know why those people have arrested me. And he asked me whether I do not know anything regarding a girl who was burnt in the location and I told him no. I did not know anything about that. I just only came here to sign. And these people arrested me when I got to the police station. At about 7 o'clock of the same day the boer took me and hit me on the head and my head got swollen. And I sustained many head injuries because they were forcing us to give a statement about what they wanted us to say. From there in the evening I told him there is no statement I can make here. I'll make a statement in court. At about 12 o'clock they called me again from the cells so that I could go and make a statement. It was in the evening. They wanted me to make a statement at court. And then I was surprised. I was wondering whether there was a court that could sit in the evening. When I was still at the charge office they brought along an interpreter, called Mokwena. After they have brought Mokwena they took me to the court for a statement. When I entered the court there was a magistrate, called Von Wielligh. I told the magistrate that there is no statement I could make, because I do not know of any court that sits in the evening. And then I showed this magistrate that these MMABATHO HEARING TRC/NORTH WEST 5 A B KGOBADI policemen have been assaulting me. And when we were arrested I told him that these people who were assaulting us and they never accepted anything from us. And the policemen could never help me because after putting you in the cell they would go away and would get drunk in the police station. After showing him the scars from my neck, I was bleeding from the neck and my head was swollen. When I entered the police station Major Swanepoel looked at my statement and said I have written shit on that statement and then he tore up the statement. I made a second statement. After making such statement Mr Kgopane also said I have written shit. He never explained what shit means. On the following day, in the afternoon, at 12 o'clock they sent me to the Chief Magistrate, called Cronje, where I made another statement. And they never tore the statement, although I have given the same statement as the one that was torn up. From there they took me to the cells again. After I made the other statement they still assaulted me. They kicked me in the ribs again. By that time we were about 14 in number who had been arrested by that case regarding Galebale. Her other name is Frida. And I did'nt know anything regarding this case, but I was a member of the UDF. In the first instance where Brand was hitting me, they asked me about Joe Mogaso. They asked whether he was the one who influenced us and I told them, I don't know Joe Mogaso, I haven't seen him before. I don't know how he looks. MMABATHO HEARING TRC/NORTH WEST 6 A KGOBADI I think that is all that happened to me. All I can say to you. CHAIRPERSON I see here in your statement you are talking about James Muenwe. Who is James Muenwe? MR KGOBADI Yes, I talked about James Muenwe. He is the one they first sent me to when they first sent me home. I was arrested together with him, regarding this case of Masoko. They asked James whether my name was Andries. CHAIRPERSON You are talking here about 11 comrades who were arrested together with you maybe. Among them, did you know any, or did you know all of them? MR KGOBADI I only knew the ones that I was arrested together with, regarding the case of Frida. They were the ones that we were alleged to have burnt Frida together with. CHAIRPERSON Were you all members of the Huhudi Youth? MR KGOBADI Yes. CHAIRPERSON Were you also members of the UDF. CHAIRPERSON I see you said they made you make statements. MR KGOBADI Will you please repeat the question? CHAIRPERSON You said they made you carry money bags. Was it coins or paper notes? MR KGOBADI No, the bag I'm talking about is the bag they put your belongings in at the police station. But they put it over my head and they sprayed it with tear gas. CHAIRPERSON Did they do this before explaining to you why they arrested you? Or did they arrested you first? Or did they tell you first why you were at the police station? MR KGOBADI No, they never told anything to me. They never told me why they have arrested me. They only assaulted me and told me this I did this, why I never did MMABATHO HEARING TRC/NORTH WEST 7 A KGOBADI it. CHAIRPERSON I see here they are talking about Joe Mogaso? Who is Joe Mogaso? MR KGOBADI Joe Mogaso was the UDF organizer before it was the ANC. They wanted us to say it was this Joe Mogaso who influenced us to make such things. CHAIRPERSON Did he belong to the Youth Organization? Did he belong to the Huhudi Youth? MR KGOBADI No, the was the organizer, but it wasn't him who influenced us. The police wanted us to say it was he who influenced us to do bad things. CHAIRPERSON I heard you saying that when you arrived at the police station, you said you had come to sign, you were not arrested. Were you going to the police station daily to sing? MR KGOBADI Yes, I was on bail for R150 in the case of public violence regarding Masoko. That is where Brand assaulted us. And I was signing regarding this case everyday at 5 o'clock, whilst I was on bail. And this policeman called Botes, he was a huge guy, who asked me whether I was Andries. And I told him yes. And that is when he grabbed me and went to ask me about this case of Frida. CHAIRPERSON You say by that time you were already bleeding. What did they use to his you that you could bleed? MR KGOBADI I don't know what they hit me with. I really didn't see what they hit me with because of the tear gas they had sprayed on me. I think they use a donkey pill to hit me on the head. CHAIRPERSON So they made you appear before the MMABATHO HEARING TRC/NORTH WEST 8 A KGOBADI Magistrate. What the Magistrate say when they didn't accept your statement. MR KGOBADI It was in the evening when I went to the Magistrate to make a statement and I made a statement on what I knew. I know I didn't do anything. That is when I returned to the police station after 12 o'clock, when they told me I have just written shit for my statement. CHAIRPERSON Before Magistrate Cronje, what did they tell you to say. MR KGOBADI They were forcing us to accept that we burnt Frida. That is the same statement I gave at chief Magistrate, but I never did that. They wanted us to accept that we burnt Frida. And there was a court case and we were not found guilty because all the evidence we gave there was in the statements, because we didn't burn Frida. Because they took photo's and the photo's were taken there and the photo's gave the evidence that it wasn't us who burnt Frida. The policemen only wanted us to accept that we burnt Frida, because they assaulted us so that we could accept that we burnt Frida. CHAIRPERSON When your lawyer Saldana consulted you, did you tell him about what they did to you? When I met they lawyer, Vincent Saldana, I think it was before the case. Did you tell him about all they did to you? MR KGOBADI Yes, we told him. CHAIRPERSON Before you appeared in the court did they ever sent you to a doctor? MR KGOBADI After we were assaulted we were never taken to a doctor. We wanted to go to the doctor but they kept us in the cells. They waited for us, for our wounds to heal a MMABATHO HEARING TRC/NORTH WEST 9 A KGOBADI bit then they took us to the government doctor who was called Coetzee. CHAIRPERSON After this case did Saldanha sent you to a private doctor? His or yours. MR KGOBADI In this first case Saldanha was not involved. He was involved in Frida's case. In the first case the Magistrate never asked if we had lawyers or not. They conducted the case the way they wanted, because the Magistrate was also working together with the policemen. Because they were sitting together when we were giving evidence. And that implied that we will meet in the cells. CHAIRPERSON When they said you burnt Mr Masoko's house - who was Mr Masoko? MR KGOBADI He was staying the same street as us, but I didn't know what she was, because when they came to arrest Steven Makono, they arrested him next door to us. And after arresting him he brought the policemen to our place and they said I was together with the people who stoned his house. And I asked him, is your head working well? You arrested this person just in front of me and you are now claiming that I was together with them when they stoned the house. And the other person said, no they burnt a Hippo whilst I was still with them. DR RANDERA Can you tell what you were doing in 1985 and what you are doing now? MR KGOBADI I was working at that time but presently I am not employed. I am a bricklayer and plumber but I am not working on a full-time basis. DR RANDERA I would like to ask, and I know it is very MMABATHO HEARING TRC/NORTH WEST 10 A KGOBADI painful, about your torture. You talked repeatedly about given electric shock treatment. What of your body did they shock? MR KGOBADI They were using an electric shock. They had the shock attached my ears. DR RANDERA The time that they put the tear gas into the bag, or they sprayed it onto your face you say, could you tell us what you felt at that time and what it did to you? MR KGOBADI Before they did that to me I was a healthy person but since they started spraying me with tear gas and shocking I experience pains right through my body. DR RANDERA Andries, do you have to go to the doctor regularly now because of what happened to you at the time? MR KGOBADI Sorry? DR RANDERA Do you have to go to doctor, to this hospital or to the clinic regularly because of what happened to you at that time? MR KGOBADI I have never been able to go to the doctor because in the second case when went to sign, I was locked up for 10 months until I was sentenced for three years. DR RANDERA What would you like the Truth Commission to do for you? MR KGOBADI I would like the Commission to decide whether they will pay or help me in another way. DR RANDERA Sorry Andries, could you just repeat that. I didn't hear that. MR KGOBADI ...(indistinct) DR RANDERA You want compensation. All right Andries. MS SEROKE Andries, I would like to ask, did you know Frida at the time. MR KGOBADI No I did not know her. MMABATHO HEARING TRC/NORTH WEST 11 A KGOBADI MS SEROKE Now you said, when they put those electric shocks through your ears.... How are your ears now? Are they functioning well? MR KGOBADI No. I can't hear properly. I hear so hard. It is not easy for me to hear anything. MS SEROKE OK. Thank you. DR RANDERA Andries, I know you have said that you didn't Frida. That you were charged and acquitted in the Frida Mabelane case. But is there anything that you want to say today that may help Frida's mother and sister and grandmother about what happened to their daughter? MR KGOBADI No, I don't know anything about what happened to Frida. DR RANDERA Thank you Andries. CHAIRPERSON Thank you and we will try to see how we can solve your problems, so that we can know what caused the people to do what they did to you. Thank you.