hrvtrans HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATIONS, SUBMISSIONS QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS 1996-12-04 MOUTSE JOB NDALANDA JB02468 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=55713&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/hrvtrans/moutse/ndalanda.htm CHAIRPERSON: With whom are you Mr Ndalanda? Is he the one who is helping you. We thank you. I will hand over to Mr Wynand to lead you with the oath. JOB NDALANDA</B> (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON I will ask Joyce to lead your evidence. MS SEROKE Good afternoon Mr Ndalanda. You are coming here to tell us about yourself having been abducted by some other people in April 1986. You were also taken away in June 1986 and you witnessed a person being shot. This was during the time when there was unrest in Tweefontein from 4 to 12 1986. We will request you briefly to tell us as to what happened to you on those two days. MR NDALANDA In 1986, it was in April at 12 o'clock in the evening a car came to my house in the evening. They knocked at the door, they said I am Nkosana. I said what is happening Nkosana, they said to me they sent me to come and collect you. The Mbcoto is outside. They said I should come to your house to collect you, they want us in Kwaggafontein B. I asked him what are we going to do there, he said I don't know. I woke up, we got into the car, the Cressida. Around the corner we saw many cars. This car followed us. We arrived at Kwaggafontein B. This plan is called Magasine. We found many people there. We sat on the chairs. They asked me why are we not helping them. I asked them helping with what. We don't know this Mbcoto. They MOUTSE HEARING TRC/MPUMALANGA 2 NDALANDA MOUTSE HEARING TRC/MPUMALANGA 3 NDALANDA people started running because they realised it was dangerous. That day there was nothing in our area because they started attacking us and they started firing at block F. They shot at one boy and he fell down. And then our car turned to block F again inside and the other guy fell to (indistinct) house. We went to block G and that is where they started shooting. People were dying, some were running, some were being assaulted. They said to me you are no longer going back home we are taking you along with us, it is over with you. I wanted to jump out of the van. They stopped somewhere. All the Mbcoto guys were there. That is where I saw Majozi Mahlangu started shooting. They were wearing balaclavas and they removed those balaclavas. I also saw Minister Piet Makawa. From there soldiers were standing at the gate when Mbcoto was coming to attack us. The time they were assaulting us they were following from behind watching what was happening. They asked me a question who is the leader of the comrades, I said I don't know. They said you are supporting Jim's government. they started beating me up again. After that, after we were waiting there I saw one guy who was shot on the throat but I don't know the person and then fell outside the van. I saw many vehicles burning. Police arrived on the scene, they said they were coming from Pretoria. When these police arrived Minister Makawe and the others opened the cars and took out their guns and put the guns inside Brig Van Niekerk's car. That was a Skyline. And Brig Van Niekerk took those guns and the others ran away and were left there being injured and this police came to us and asked us why are they assaulting you, why are they beaing you up. We said we don't know. I had an operation. They kicked us up, MOUTSE HEARING TRC/MPUMALANGA 4 NDALANDA I didn't know what I did to them. From there the police said to us you people who have been injured come this side. They came to us. They said we should go to Dr Mahamba. Dr Mahamba removed some bullet pellets from the eyes. He also gave me tablets. When I arrived at home I found that my mother had been assaulted. She was in hospital and another pregnant woman was in hospital, she was also assaulted. I slept in the morning, I woke up and went to town to consult a doctor. On Monday I went to Kwaggafontein police station to open a docket, to lay a charge against the police and they said I should go back, they will come to me to inform me when the case is on. While I was still at home Father Mulapu came to my place and by a kombi we were taken to Seobuswa. We went to Pretoria to take some statements and these police from Pretoria came in 1986 to investigate. They left. We were never called. In 1987 early March I was at work in my office. One policeman came. I was driving a four wheel drive. He greeted me, he said he wanted Job. I said I am Job. He said he was sent by the government in Kwamhlanga to come and look at your statement if it is all right. I read the statement. I said this statement is all right. When he came to me he said he is Jaga, he didn't tell me the real surname. He came back again, he asked me can you be able to point out the people who assaulted you. I said yes. This thing happened during daylight. We waited the whole of 1987. In 1988 I became ill. In 1989 they started investigating the case again. He came back again with Pretorius and Van Schalkwyk. They found me at home, he greeted me, he asked me if I remember him. I said yes I know you. I said are you Jaga. He said no I am not Jaga, I told you lies I am Stemmet. I said no I don't know MOUTSE HEARING TRC/MPUMALANGA 5 NDALANDA Stemmet. He gave me his police cards. The day he came to me they didn't have beards. I took out his photo, I realised that it was the person who came to me. I asked him why did you do that, he said he was sent, I am working. We found that he made another statement alone. When we arrived in Pretoria they read the statement to me and I said this is not the statement which I have given to this man and the signature does not belong to me. They have written it in another way. I said I didn't say this. All what is in this statement is not true. In 1989 we waited to be called. In 1990 again we waited, in 1991 in February they came to tell me that I was wanted in the Supreme Court in Pretoria. I went to the Supreme Court. I found that on the list which was written by these people my name was not there. I asked them why are you calling me here when my name does not appear on the list and then Stemmet said this is the guy who we are looking for. There were some other witnesses and I was one of the witnesses. At the end the senior prosecutor said I accept your statement and it is true. After that there was no case about this until today. MS SEROKE Mr Ndalanda during that time you said you were working for the tribal authority. What were you doing there? MR NDALANDA I was a tribal police. MS SEROKE You were with the tribal police? MR NDALANDA Yes. MS SEROKE You say when they came to you in April they asked you why don't you join Mbcoto and I said I don't know what Mbcoto is. What were the reasons? MR NDALANDA Because I didn't know where Mbcoto was working and we heard that they assault people, people get injured. MOUTSE HEARING TRC/MPUMALANGA 6 NDALANDA You can't join something which you don't know. MS SEROKE Secondly in Tweefontein you are saying that these people were attacking people driving cars. What was the reason behind it because you also say that they were assisted by police. MR NDALANDA I also don't understand because there were no riots in our area. It was quiet. We were surprised to see them attacking us. That day there were no unrests. MS SEROKE What happened before which made them to start attacking you? MR NDALANDA When these riots and unrest started after that there were riots all over Kwandebele but in Kwaggafontein there was nothing at that time. It was strong in other areas of Kwandebele. MS SEROKE When you say that when they started this could you please explain to us what kind of war. MR NDALANDA Actually Mbcoto it is the one who started beating up people, threatening people until people got angry and they decided to defend themselves. MS SEROKE Can you please explain to us the manner of their defence, how they used to defend themselves. MR NDALANDA How they defended themselves? Because these people were entering in these areas with weapons, they also took weapons to defend themselves. MS SEROKE This place called Magasine, we heard about it a lot in these hearings. What was happening there? MR NDALANDA Magasine is a government place where government officials stay so there is a big hall in that area and that is where these people used to meet. MS SEROKE Is it the same like Seobuswa because are talking about Seobuswa. Are you talking about the same hall, MOUTSE HEARING TRC/MPUMALANGA 7 NDALANDA Magasine or Seobuswa or Kwaggafontein B, not Seobuswa. You say they assaulted you, they have beaten you up, they were putting balaclavas, they removed those balaclavas and you recognised them. Did you count those people? Their names? MR NDALANDA No, now I have not given you their names. MS SEROKE Could you please tell us their names. MR NDALANDA The people who came to pick me up it was Stephans Nkosana, Platklas Mguni, Mziswa, I have forgotten his name, Mgendu. It was Kuswa Mahlangu. Those are the people who picked me up but along the way when we arrived at G block that is where I saw them. MS SEROKE You saw them doing what? Who were they? MR NDALANDA The whole Mbcoto group. MS SEROKE Tell us their names. MR NDALANDA It was Makawa and Majozi, Mgoma, Mtinmunya. Those are the people whom I recognised. Mkwane. MS SEROKE You also said in your statement you witnessed when Jabulani Malaza was being shot. Who shot him? MR NDALANDA Majozi shot at him. MS SEROKE You also said you laid a charge firstly you gave a statement, during the time you were giving a statement did you mention their names in the first statement in Kwaggafontein? MR NDALANDA Yes, I gave those names. MS SEROKE When coming to the second statement you realised that it was not a statement which you gave to the police can you remember what was not there in the second statement? MR NDALANDA The difference was that the person who wrote the statement said - it said we were fighting, we were throwing stones at Mbcoto, that is why Mbcoto started MOUTSE HEARING TRC/MPUMALANGA 8 NDALANDA shooting at us. MS SEROKE That was the second statement? MR NDALANDA Yes, it was the second statement. MS SEROKE It was in conflict with the first statement. MR NDALANDA Yes. MS SEROKE What did Stemmet say to you when you said this is not the statement which I have given to the police? MR NDALANDA He said to me he was sent by the government which was there and they told me to change the statement and the second statement was saying that I agree with Mbcoto, there is nothing that they were doing wrong. MR ALLY Just to be absolutely clear now you say that you saw Mbcoto members and in particular you saw Majozi Mahlangu shoot at people. You actually saw that yourself, firing at people. MR NDALANDA Yes, I saw it. MR ALLY And did you see any person fall as a result of that shot being fired? MR NDALANDA Yes. MR ALLY Now in the court case you say that the statements were changed. Now I want to know if you can recall was ... MR NDALANDA Ja, I still remember well, they changed the statement. MR ALLY You say the person who changed the statement was Stemmet. MR NDALANDA Yes, it was Stemmet. MR ALLY And the statement was changed to say that Mbcoto was firing in self defence. The statement didn't deny that Mbcoto actually fired at people, is that correct? MR NDALANDA Yes, they said Mbcoto was defending itself, we provoked Mbcoto but according to our own statement Mbcoto MOUTSE HEARING TRC/MPUMALANGA 9 NDALANDA attacked us first. MR ALLY The Mbcoto people did not deny shooting, they said that they did shoot but that they had shot in self defence. Is that what you say? MR NDALANDA No, I am not saying that. Actually they attacked. There were no fights at that time. MR ALLY I am not asking what you saw, I am saying what Mbcoto said. They didn't deny shooting, all they said was that we shot in self defence. That is what Mbcoto said, not you. Mbcoto said we shot in self defence. And just to be absolutely clear again, you are saying that when Mbcoto fired on people this was completely unprovoked, that people had not been throwing stones at them or had not been attacking or doing anything to them, was that what you ... MR NDALANDA No. We never did anything to them. MR MALAN Mr Ndalanda, you said that they came to your house, they kicked open the door, they broke the door down and they asked you to join them voluntarily. Is that correct? MR NDALANDA They never kicked the door. At the first time they didn't kick the door. MR MALAN According to your statement it says they broke the door and took me by force and then they asked me to join them. This is what the statement taker wrote down. Is that not correct? MR NDALANDA No, it is not correct. MR MALAN It was quiet at the time, there was peace, there was no fighting when this happened, that specific day that Mrs Seroke asked you about. There was no fighting at the time. MR NDALANDA No. MOUTSE HEARING TRC/MPUMALANGA 10 NDALANDA MR MALAN But I get the impression that you sort of indicated, because you say no fighting with us we have not been fighting with them, were you in some way on the other side or working with the comrades, was that a perception maybe of the Mbcoto? MR NDALANDA No. I was not working with the comrades. MR MALAN There was no affiliations? MR NDALANDA No. MR MALAN One further question. You say in your statement that you saw the shooting by Majozi Mahlangu and you also say that Van Niekerk arrived in his car. MR NDALANDA Yes, it is true. MR MALAN And they went and put weapons in Van Niekerk's car. MR NDALANDA Yes. MR MALAN So Van Niekerk was all with them according to your understanding of the situation. MR NDALANDA Yes, it is an indication that he was together with them. I only saw his car, vehicle standing there and they took their guns and put them in his car. MR MALAN Did you see it personally, with your own eyes? MR NDALANDA Yes. MR MALAN You saw both of them, Majozi and Van Niekerk with your own eyes on that day. MR NDALANDA Yes. CHAIRPERSON Were you a policeman? MR NDALANDA Yes, I was a policeman. CHAIRPERSON ....your work as a policeman and that of Mbcoto. MR NDALANDA Ja, I see the difference because working for the people was not a threat to anyone. Whenever I arrest MOUTSE HEARING TRC/MPUMALANGA 11 NDALANDA anyone, whenever I arrest anyone we were working for the chief, under the chief's rule. CHAIRPERSON According to your understanding anybody who was disturbing the people or was disturbing the peace, you know amongst the people belonging to the chief, couldn't you have arrested those people in the name of the powers upon you from the chief? MR NDALANDA I don't understand your question. Can you please repeat your question. MR MALAN What I mean is as the police ... (nothing further on tape). MR NDALANDA My job was to look after what is wrong within the village. I am just giving you an example. If a wife and a husband quarrels so I took the case to the chief. That was my job. CHAIRPERSON And when Mbcoto was disturbing that peace you know you wouldn't even have appealed or reported to the chief and wait for orders from the chief regarding what you should do to those people who were disturbing the peace in the village? MR NDALANDA Actually we were working, we were not threatening anyone, we were working peacefully. We used to discipline everyone. We used not to oppress anyone. I could not do that because even the chief who was ruling that area didn't recognise Mbcoto. CHAIRPERSON And yet the powers of Mbcoto were above the powers of the chiefs, if I understand you correctly. MR NDALANDA Yes. Because they were supporting the government. CHAIRPERSON And for that reason even when they arrested you or when they called you the chief's office would have no MOUTSE HEARING TRC/MPUMALANGA 12 NDALANDA power to find out where you were and who was withholding you from the normal duties for the chief. MR NDALANDA During that day when they attacked us actually the chief whom I was working under, he was my father. They told him that they came to me and told him what happened. CHAIRPERSON What did your father say or what did your father do when he learned that you were abducted? MR NDALANDA He was also surprised as to what happened. CHAIRPERSON I will come back to those people who were shot and killed. What did you do, did you report this to their families? MR NDALANDA No. Actually the one who died was Malaza. His family moved from the area. After Malaza died they moved from that area. They ran away because they were afraid. I can put it like that. Because we went there with the police to go and look for his parents. They said since they left, that day after Malaza was killed those people that area. We were told by their neighbours. CHAIRPERSON We thank you, Mr Ndalanda and you have contributed to the much needed knowledge about the true state of affairs in Kwandebele at this time. We are truly hurt too with your family for what has happened to you. After all this assault did you ever go to the doctor? I don't know whether I heard you say about that, talk about that. MR NDALANDA Yes, I went to the doctor. I am also undergoing the treatment now. CHAIRPERSON What are you being treated for? MR NDALANDA After having been assaulted I was frightened, I was having trauma. I had sugar diabetes. CHAIRPERSON ... this regularly now? MOUTSE HEARING TRC/MPUMALANGA 13 NDALANDA MR NDALANDA Yes, I go to H F at the end of the month. I will go next week on the 9th, on Monday. CHAIRPERSON We are truly sorry for that and I will repeat that we are grateful that you did come to share with us of the plight of the people of Kwandebele at that time. And we will do the best we can to trace and report on our findings with regard to the whole set up. We thank you.