hrvtrans 1 M SITHOLE, HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATIONS, SUBMISSIONS QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS 1996-12-03 MOUTSE 2 M SITHOLE https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=55717&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/hrvtrans/moutse/sithole.htm CHAIRPERSON Mrs Sithole, can you hear me? Good. You do not have to stand since you are having trouble with your walking, it seems, but if you would not mind taking the oath while remaining seated, we will appreciate it. MARTHA SITHOLE (Duly sworn in, states). CHAIRPERSON Thank you very much. Mrs Sithole, Mrs Joyce Seroke will also assist you in your evidence and I hand the chair, for the moment, to her. MS SEROKE Good morning Mrs Sithole. May you please introduce the mother whom you are with. MRS SITHOLE This is my aunt and my neighbour. MS SEROKE We welcome you aunt. Your story which we are going to hear today is related to what we started yesterday about the rate in Moutse at Gobokwane. You are coming to tell us how Piet Sithole died on that day. Explain to us, shortly, the names and what happened. MRS SITHOLE This Piet Sithole was abducted at home in the morning when we were just waking up and they were put in the lorry and they took him with. It seems they were taken to Gobokwane. After some time my son returned. He was running. Then he said to me let us rush to go and see my father at the clinic. When we arrived at the clinic we found them, they were badly assaulted. His head was chopped and we could not identify him. Then he was taken to MOUTSE HEARING TRC/MPUMALANGA 2 M SITHOLE the hospital. When I tried to go in the ambulance they said what are you going to return with so you had better stay behind. Then I was left behind and then the following day, then my aunt went. The following day I went to look for him at the hospital, but I had some problems, but I arrived. He was badly injured. He was not able to talk. On the body you could see some wounds. Thereafter in the morning we phoned to Mrs Sithole. Then Mrs Sithole informed us the person died immediately after we left. Then we took him to bury him. After the funeral, after two months or three months the police arrived at home. Then he said he is from Dennilton. He is responsible for the case as we wanted to find out what happened and how he was killed. He said to us we should come to Dennilton to get the whole information and they gave us a date. I called all the family members and then I brought them to Dennilton. On that day we went to Spepoero. When we arrived at that place we could not find any information and we tried to ask. Nobody answered us. Then we returned back and that policeman who was working at Dennilton and who was responsible for this case then said he is Mr Ngobeni, but on that day at Spepoero he was not there. We went back up to this day. I had five children at that time who were students and then the elder one was not at school at that time. Four of them are at school. After some time I was unable to pay their school expenses. They were trying to look for work and they were not able to find one. They are not even working up to this day. I was getting the old age pension. That money is not enough to support my children. As from 1986 I started to, I became cardiac. I am not able to support my children or take them MOUTSE HEARING TRC/MPUMALANGA 3 M SITHOLE to school. This little money I get is for me to go for medical treatment. I do not know as from then what happened and why they were killed and how they were killed. I am still in the dark. I will be happy if I may be informed what happened. MS SEROKE During that time when they were taken, what was happening at KwaNdebele? MRS SITHOLE The place was full of unrest and lorries were taking people outside our area. We did not know what happened. MS SEROKE Was it a fight, was it a conflict, what was happening? MRS SITHOLE The old men were beaten and they were taken. MS SEROKE Were they taken to go and fight? Do you know the person who took him? MRS SITHOLE I do not know the person who took him. It was early in the morning and we were still asleep at that time. They woke up and then they were taken. We did not know why, but they said they were taking them to Gobokwane. We did not know what we were going to do. MS SEROKE Was it only your husband who was taken? MRS SITHOLE Other men were taken, but I am not able to identify them, but he was not alone. MS SEROKE Was there no person who witnessed this incident or who was there who saw how your husband was killed? MRS SITHOLE I did not hear anything up to this day how he was killed. He went to Gobokwane, he did not come back and we found him at the clinic. He was not able, even, to speak. MS SEROKE When you heard, thereafter, were they fighting with the Ndebele people or what were they doing? MOUTSE HEARING TRC/MPUMALANGA 4 M SITHOLE MRS SITHOLE They were fighting with the Gobokwane people, but I do not know. MS SEROKE Is Gobokwane in Moutse? MRS SITHOLE Yes, it is in Moutse. MS SEROKE So which means they were fighting with the Pedis. MRS SITHOLE I think so. MS SEROKE You do not know what they were fighting for? MRS SITHOLE No. I do not know who is responsible for my husband's death and I do not know the situation surrounding his death up to this day. DR ALLY Mrs Sithole, just one or two questions. You say that your husband was abducted. You are saying that he was actually taken from his house against his will. Is that what you are saying? That he did not actually, himself, volunteer to go. MRS SITHOLE He was just taken. As to whether he knew those people. He went on his own, but as whether he knew those people in those lorries, I do not know. DR ALLY Because according to what we have been able to establish about those events, the people who were going to Gobokwane in Moutse were the, so called, Imbokhoto. Now, do you know whether your husband was a supporter or a member or had anything to do with Imbokhoto? MRS SITHOLE I do not know as to whether he was a member of Imbokhoto. He was working at that time at Passtown Magistrate Office. DR ALLY But did he give any indication at any time about how he felt about what was happening, about Imbokhoto? Was that ever discussed? MRS SITHOLE No, he did not tell me anything. MOUTSE HEARING TRC/MPUMALANGA 5 M SITHOLE DR ALLY I am sorry to dwell on this, but just to come back. When they came to fetch your husband you said it was early in the morning. Did your husband try to resist and say I do not want to go and then they forced him or did they come and your husband went even if he did not know who the people were? MRS SITHOLE He went out of the house, it was early in the morning. I was still in the bedroom. When he went out I saw lorries. I do not know as to whether he did like or he did not like to go. He just went out of the house and then climbed on the lorry. DR ALLY Thank you Mrs Sithole. CHAIRPERSON Mrs Sithole. Tom, you have a question. MR MANTHATA No. CHAIRPERSON Mrs Sithole, I heard you say that you have no idea who the people were. You did not know them, you did not see them that collected your husband to take him to Gobokwane. Is that correct? MRS SITHOLE I did not know who they were. CHAIRPERSON Do you know that in the written statement that you made to the Truth Commission that our statement taker wrote up your statement and said that you say he was collected by Piet Ntolie and Majosie Mahlangu and other people. Did you tell them that? MRS SITHOLE On the statement which you are referring to, when I came to write the statement, I was with his brother, Mr Sithole, that is the one who identified those people. CHAIRPERSON Where was his brother at the time? Did he travel with him? MRS SITHOLE He was from his house and Piet Ntolie left from his house. So they met on the road, whether they met MOUTSE HEARING TRC/MPUMALANGA 6 M SITHOLE on the road or at Gobokwane, I do not know. CHAIRPERSON Sorry, may I just get this clear. Did your husband, did his brother identify the people? MRS SITHOLE I do not know as to whether he saw them, but we are in the same area. I believe he saw them when they left, but I am not sure. CHAIRPERSON I just want to observe that it makes it extremely, and this is a general statement really to everybody. If we call names of people from what we believe instead of from what we know, makes it exceptionally difficult and also the accusation hurts when a person is accused and might not have been involved. So, we have got to be ten times more careful in the future, as not to be naming people if we want to live in unity and reconciliation except if we have the evidence to support it. It is common cause that your husband was taken away by people. It is common cause that he did die. There is nothing much that we can help you with except to tender our sympathy and condolences and to hope and pray with you that somewhere in the future you will also find meaning to his death. Thank you for sharing your painful experiences with us. It must have opened up all the wounds. We appreciate your joining us and giving your testimony. Thank you. MOUTSE HEARING TRC/MPUMALANGA