hrvtrans 1 B SKOSANA, HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATIONS, SUBMISSIONS QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS 1996-12-03 MOUTSE 2 BETTY SKOSANA JB02304 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=55718&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/hrvtrans/moutse/skosana.htm CHAIRPERSON ... did see the King this morning and I assume he is still out in the tearoom. MS SEROKE He has left. CHAIRPERSON Has he left? In his absence, then, may I just say that we appreciate him coming back today again, having started the evidence yesterday. We do not expect of him to be here for the full four days, but we appreciate also the fact that he came here. What is it, Ministry. DR ALLY Yes. CHAIRPERSON Is it these Fathers. Then we have, seems like Ministers of the Cloth, I assume. Ndwanda and Tauw. Welcome especially to the two gentlemen. We appreciate your presence and is it Mashlamo. DR ALLY J L Mashlamo. CHAIRPERSON J L Mashlamo, Senator. There he is. Welcome to you and Mohedi, Member of Parliament. Mr Mohedi, thank you for your presence too. Mrs Skosana, just before we start with the evidence, do you have any objection to taking the oath? MRS B SKOSANA I am ready to take the oath. CHAIRPERSON With you, is it your daughter, Selina, who also made a statement? MRS B SKOSANA Yes, this is Selina. MOUTSE HEARING TRC/MPUMALANGA 2 B SKOSANA CHAIRPERSON And the little one on the left? MRS SKOSANA This is Selina's child. CHAIRPERSON Well may I welcome all of you and I think we will start with your evidence. We have a statement also of Selina's and I am not sure whether she would want to contribute anything outside of what you have said, but we can leave this till after your evidence, she would be welcome having made the statement. The person who will be leading and assisting will be Mr Tom Manthata. MRS SKOSANA Alright. CHAIRPERSON Mrs Skosana, would you mind just standing, taking the oath before Mr Manthata commences with your evidence? BETTY SKOSANA (Duly sworn in, states). CHAIRPERSON Thank you very much, you may sit down. I wonder, Selina, in the event of you also giving evidence, would you mind taking the oath? MS S SKOSANA (Duly sworn in, states). CHAIRPERSON Thank you very much and you may be seated. Mr Manthata, please. MR MANTHATA We are grateful that both of you from the family could honour us with your presence. Ms Selina, Sorry, Mrs Betty, what are you doing presently? MRS B SKOSANA I am working in town. I have a temporary job as a domestic worker. MR MANTHATA Are there still children that you are bringing up rather than your grandchildren? MRS B SKOSANA Yes, there are children that I am bringing up. MR MANTHATA Are they at school? MRS B SKOSANA Yes, some of them are at school. MOUTSE HEARING TRC/MPUMALANGA 3 B SKOSANA MR MANTHATA And some of them have completed schooling? MRS B SKOSANA Yes, one completed his schooling. MR MANTHATA Okay. Could you please just tell us what happened this fateful night when Obaba Skosana was abducted? MRS B SKOSANA It was on the 28th of April while we were still at home and the school kids were called that the Imbokhoto is going to give them their reply. My husband said now the children have requested to go to school, now why did you not just punish them like normal kids. Why did you have to assault them like this? It was at about five o' clock when we locked ourselves in the house and stones were thrown and these people could not get into the house. I was pressing the other door while my husband was blocking the other one. They decided to get into the house through the ceiling and they assaulted us. They were throwing stones at us, they were hitting us with shamboks, with knobkirries. While we were busy fighting for the door it was obvious that we did not have any chance. They were already in the house through the ceiling and my daughter had a child in her hands. I decided to get the child. They called me, they said get into the van. My husband was thrown into another van. He could not even walk. I was in the van and he was in the other van. He was together with the members of Imbokhoto. One of them hit me with a gun-butt. I was asking them why were they doing this? This man drove. I know the name of a person, but I cannot call him by name and he said this woman is already injured and she has a baby. I want you to let her escape. These other gentlemen agreed. Then he took me to number two and I was left behind in the van with this other man who was sitting on my left side. He came back from the shop with Ultramel MOUTSE HEARING TRC/MPUMALANGA 4 B SKOSANA custard. We gave this child the custard. When it was dark we left and we passed through number one. They turned right at the corner that was a house where S S was staying. They drove straight. I started crying. After a long silence the driver asked me what is it that I want them to do. I said to them I want to go back home. They took me back home and they said do not sleep at your home because when they come back they are going to kill you. I went to my next door neighbours. I spent some few hours with them. At about three o' clock in the morning I wanted Bonanie to take my children and, indeed, they were on their way to come to where I was. We decided to leave, all of us, to go home and when we arrived I saw my husband lying on the stoep and I touched his pulse. He was cold, he was already dead. We called the policemen and they came to take him. The axe that was used to chop my door was taken by the policemen and they took all the pieces that were there and they took the axe as I have mentioned already. I will stop there. I do not have anything to say. MR MANTHATA Relax Mama. Where you find the questions are difficult to answer, just do not answer. You talk about Obaba Skosana having reprimanded these people, the severity with which they punished the school children and that they ought to have not punished them that way, but they ought to have just spanked them and left them like that. How many children, at that time, did you have at that school? MRS B SKOSANA There were many school children. There were really many. Even after they have dispersed, some of them were in the camp and many of them were assaulted and they were standing next to the police ambulance as they were being given medical help. MOUTSE HEARING TRC/MPUMALANGA 5 B SKOSANA MR MANTHATA And Obaba had gone there as a leader to talk to this Imbokhoto people to stop all that brutality? MRS B SKOSANA He was just an ordinary man. MR MANTHATA That is what I mean. I mean he was an ordinary leader of his people going to talk to these people, the Imbokhoto, who were punishing the children that severely. Alright. MRS B SKOSANA Yes, he wanted to talk to them because the children were requesting some few things from them and instead of replying to the children they decided to assault them. MR MANTHATA And these people came later at night to your house. That is long after the reprimand was done before the students and this people at the camp. That is when the Imbokhoto came home at night, as you put it, you know, to break. MRS B SKOSANA They came, it was after four. It was not even dark when they came to my home. MR MANTHATA And at that time you were just seated as a family? MRS B SKOSANA Yes, we were just seated at home as a family because it was in the afternoon. In April month four o' clock is still light. MR MANTHATA And they did not say anything, but they just bashed into the house and started attacking? MRS B SKOSANA They came chanting their songs saying Imbokhoto, Imbokhoto. They were armed with knobkirries, shamboks and all weapons. Those who were throwing stones were the ones throwing stones. They were actually in different groups assigned with different activities. They even shot at the window. The gun they used, I thought at MOUTSE HEARING TRC/MPUMALANGA 6 B SKOSANA first it was just a toy gun, but I realised thereafter that the police were removing bullets on the wall. MR MANTHATA Which means the last time you saw Obaba Skosana was when they drove you out of the house, that is him in one or he in one van and you in another? MRS B SKOSANA Yes, that is when they took us out of the house. They put us in separate vans. That was the last time I saw him alive. MR MANTHATA So the next you found him lying dead in the house? MRS B SKOSANA Yes, that was at my home just on the stoep outside. The gate was locked when we left, but they broke it so that they can go and put him on the stoep. MR MANTHATA Have you got an idea, Mama, what position he held in the KwaNdebele Government offices here? MRS B SKOSANA Obaba? MR MANTHATA Obaba. MRS B SKOSANA He did not have any position. He was just an ordinary person. MR MANTHATA So then what did you do with the corpse when you found it lying there? MRS B SKOSANA We called the police and they came to remove his body. They took him to the mortuary. MR MANTHATA At this time, perhaps, I would love to give Selina a chance to tell us what she saw or what she experienced that night. Selina, can you take the mike? MS S SKOSANA My brothers, it was at 11 o' clock when they came back from school. We were still at primary school and they were in high school. We were just coming for break and they were just at home. Mr father was also at home because he was sick. My father asked them why are you so early from MOUTSE HEARING TRC/MPUMALANGA 7 S SKOSANA school? They said to him we were asking to have afternoon studies at our school, but Imbokhoto does not want us to have afternoon studies. As we were talking in the house we decided to leave because we were still at primary school and my elder brothers stayed at home. I think it was this discussed that they should go to the Tribal Authorities, but as we were on our way to school we saw that the high school pupils were not getting into the school yards. There was not any way for us to go into school anyway. We decided go back home. When I arrived at home, it was at about four o' clock I took the axe to go and chop wood. Even before I could finish chopping the wood a car drove in, many cars driven by Imbokhoto members stopped at home and I left chopping the wood. I ran to the stoep where my mother and them were sitting and I took the child. They were talking and my father said to them, please, do not get into my yard because I am the owner here and I pay the rent. They did not know what to do. They wanted to get into the yard, but they stood back and one of them forcefully entered the yard and my father fought with him. My mother went into the house to get my father a weapon. They tried to fight. We thought that they were driving away, but from far away another car approached and they started shooting. They started pushing the doors and my parents were already in the house at that time blocking the doors and realising that the doors could not get open. They jumped over the roof and they got into the house through the ceiling. They climbed on top of my father's car and all the windows were broken. My mother took the child from me and my mother said to them, I am leaving with this grandchild of mine. I said to mum, mum MOUTSE HEARING TRC/MPUMALANGA 8 S SKOSANA take the child, at least they will save you. Then they all left. We decided to go to our neighbours to spend the night there. At about 12 o' clock, midnight, we were told that my mother had arrived and she had been taken to another house. Very early, at about two o' clock in the morning our next door neighbour said to us there are people getting into your home, do you want to peep through. We said, no, we are scared, we do not want to. At about five o' clock in the morning when it was light we said let us go home and find out who are these people who were getting into the house. There was a white van at the gate and we went into the house. Just before we could get into the house my father was lying on the stoep. He was already dead and we said let us go and find out where mum is. On our way we met her and we said to her, mum, father is at home and he is dead. We all went back home. The police were called to remove the corpse. That is it. MR MANTHATA How old were you at that time Selina? MS S SKOSANA I was 13 years old. MR MANTHATA And all this time where were your brothers on this night? MS S SKOSANA They ran away, they were in hiding. MR MANTHATA How old were they? Have you got an idea? MS S SKOSANA I cannot remember very well. MR MANTHATA And how many brothers have you got? How many brothers were there? MS S SKOSANA Two of them were at a secondary school and it was myself and the other three were in a primary school. MR MANTHATA What are you doing now, Selina? MS S SKOSANA I am just at home. MOUTSE HEARING TRC/MPUMALANGA 9 S SKOSANA MR MANTHATA You are just at home and the two, the other brothers, are they working or are they still at school? MS S SKOSANA One of them is working and the other one is unemployed. MR MANTHATA I do not know whether it could be you or Betty. Do you have an idea of, do you still remember what happened on the day of the funeral? MS S SKOSANA The family was gathered and the soldiers arrived and they said, this is a large number of mourners. We only want 50 people. We said to them there is no way to dictate terms to us, we have a very large family. The comrades were in the yard and they were drinking tea. The soldiers arrived and they said can you please disperse, we only want 50 people. The comrades were stubborn and they were promised teargas and one of the comrades said let us go, it does not help to be stubborn because they will end up shooting us. The boys left and the soldiers left. The comrades realised that the soldiers were gone and they came back. The soldiers realised that they went back to the house and they threw their teargas. Another man stood up and he wanted to talk to the soldiers to tell them that the man who had just passed away is the owner of the house and friends and relatives are here to bury, but the police could not listen. They threw teargas. The soldiers picked the boys up and they took them to Kwaggafontein. On the day of the funeral we were driving in my father's car and we were on our way from the cemetery. Teargas was thrown at us by the soldiers. They kept on shooting their teargas. We were many in the car and they shot at the car. The driver of the car was a very experienced driver and he dodged their teargas canisters. MOUTSE HEARING TRC/MPUMALANGA 10 S SKOSANA MR MANTHATA You do not know what happened to the comrades and everybody in the village after dispersing from the funeral? MS S SKOSANA No. MR MANTHATA That you do not know. Do not worry about that. Okay. I think I will stop there. Over to you. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Manthata. Joyce Seroke. MS SEROKE Selina or Mrs Skosana, were your children at Manliewetu High School? MRS B SKOSANA Yes, I had a boy and a girl at Manlenie. MS SEROKE When your husband went to enquire about the harassment to the children what was happening? MRS B SKOSANA No, the Imbokhoto was assaulting the children. MS SEROKE What was the reason behind this assault? MRS B SKOSANA No, they were assaulted for asking afternoon studies and their reply was this assault. MS SEROKE Do you perhaps have an idea of the demands of the school kids? Maybe the demands that were written on paper requesting them to have a meeting with Imbokhoto. Do you not have an idea? MRS B SKOSANA No, I do not have an idea. I am sorry. He was sent back and we had to bury my husband and we were told that we will never bury him on Saturday. He had to go back to Bronkhorstspruit. He was buried on Tuesday and we decided to leave the place to go to Vosloorus. I do not know what happened thereafter. I came back when Makawe died. MS SEROKE Selina, you said the comrades were arrested. Why were they arrested? Do you have an idea? MS S SKOSANA The comrades said to the Imbokhoto people you MOUTSE HEARING TRC/MPUMALANGA 11 S SKOSANA killed Mr Skosana and he was assisting the school kids. The police said to the youth get out of the yard and the youth refused and a teargas canister was released. Then the youth were arrested. MS SEROKE Maybe I do not understand your point. You said they did not want to get out of the yard. You said to them please leave because you have just been released. Tell me you said they have just been release. Why were they arrested before? MS S SKOSANA They were arrested for burning Makawe's store. CHAIRPERSON Dr Ally. DR ALLY Selina, in your statement you mention certain people as the alleged perpetrators. There are four, five names that you give. Now, these people, did you see them there? Why is it that you name them and can you tell us if you know where these people are today? MS S SKOSANA It is difficult to call people's names. I was told that the statement is confidential. I can name them. DR ALLY No, I do not want you to name them because it is in your statement. MOUTSE HEARING TRC/MPUMALANGA