hrvtrans HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATIONS, SUBMISSIONS QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS 1997-05-21 PIET RETIEF 1 KATELENI MKHWANAZI JB2124 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=55754&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/hrvtrans/pietret/mkhwanaz.htm CHAIRPERSON Whilst the next witness is coming to the stage, can I just make a few announcements again. What I'm going to do, because we have so many people here and so many people who haven't got head sets, we asked whether it was technically possible for the interpretation to come across to you directly but it's not possible. So what I'll do is, I'll actually read out a summary of what people are going to be saying so that it helps people on the stand what's being said. I also think that those individuals who are in the audience who don't understand Zulu can always, this is part of our learning curve if you like, getting to know each other, speak to your neighbour next to you and ask them to interpret for you as a statement goes through. Thank you very much. I want to extend a warm welcome to Mrs Mary Khumalo, the deputy mayor. Will you please stand Mam, welcome; Councillor Bekkie Twala, welcome; the Reverend Cedric Pretorius, thank you for coming; Councillor Mtemkhulu, welcome. And then we have many students, I understand Piet Retief Secondary school and or Khempville Secondary School, welcome. I want to also announce that Lebo, our statement-taker, and I'm sure there are some other people with him, he's in the hall now, so if there's anybody who wants to make a statement, can you quietly make your way to the back of the hall and find Lebo, please. Thank you. Two other guests that I would like to welcome, people who have appeared at our hearings previously and who also work with the Khulumani Group, we have Duma who was one of the Sharpville Six, if he can stand and he's from the Vaal, and then the mother of Bekkie Mlangeni. Mrs Mlangeni if you can just stand and, welcome, thank you for coming again. Mrs Mkhwanazi, good morning; welcome to you. Mrs Mkhwanazi can you introduce the person who is with you? MRS MKHWANAZI The person sitting next to me is Joyce Mkhwanazi. Mrs Mkhwanazi, Mr Hugh Lewin is going to help you as you're telling your statement, but before I hand over to him will you please stand to take the oath. Dr Russel Ally will help you with that. Thank you KATELENI MKHWANAZI (sworn states) MR LEWIN Mama Kateleni, I would like to welcome you, to say feel relaxed, you're here amongst friends and I hope you can hear clearly. What you're going to tell us about today is what happened to you in the bad years, in 1986 specifically. Before you tell that story could you please just tell us a little bit about yourself, how you got to be where you were in 1986, where you were from and what you were doing, just tell us briefly please. MRS MKHWANAZI I was in Johannesburg in 1969. I was there working there and I got I got my passbook. In 1960 we heard that everybody should go back where they belong, like those who come from Piet Retief should go back to Piet Retief and we've started now being uncomfortable about the fact that we had to move back to our places. We held a meeting in Whiteville and we were there to discuss how we could overcome this pass law. We reached a decision that we should take this passbook back to the commissioner. We started collecting these pass books from people and we'd go to peoples' houses collecting the passbooks and even at the places where we were working and we set a date that for the time all the passbooks should be taken back to the commissioner. I was working at the factory. After that we heard that they were refusing to accept those passbooks and they were insisting that we should have those passbooks in our possession. I left the factory job and I went to join another work place and I heard that they were searching for me, looking for me and saying I am busy involved in attending meetings. I knew very well that I had vowed that if it means that we get arrested we will refuse every single thing that we knew. They continued looking for us until 1963 when they arrested me and I was asked where the others were, and I said I didn't know. The only one I knew was the one who pointed me, that's why they were able to arrest me and I told them that I can not show them where others were because I didn't know them. Those who were working with me collecting the passbooks and trying to boycott the passbooks. We felt that that was all the work of apartheid. I was arrested and sent to Boksburg Prison where I spent four years and five months before being released back here in Piet Retief. I left to the other place and I was there for one year and six months. One morning, Mrs Msivi and David said that I should go back home on Sunday, which I did. I was there fr two days and on Monday morning I heard Mr Masewo tell me that the boers were looking for me and they were wondering how I left I prison because they were not aware that I was out of prison as they had set a date for my release. I took my uncle with and we went to the magistrate and showed him the permit that I'm her child and that I was born here and that I should please have a pass. I was given one but they still refused to accept me as a citizen here. After that the magistrate said he was issuing only six years that I should not be bothered at all in any way. After all that I was never comfortable anymore. I was a domestic worker at this particular time and the police came to find out from my employers as to how I was behaving and how I was carrying on. I went to rent a room in the Black location and I was there at Hundred in 1986. At around nine pm the police came knocking at the door and I asked who they were. They said they were police and I opened the door and they came in. When they were inside they asked for books that I kept giving to the students. I told them I didn't have such books and they said I shouldn't think that they were joking or perhaps this is a joke but they were telling me this is serious business, they wanted those books and Mr Mathebula held me and started assaulting me. I fell down and he continually kicked me and insulting me, saying I'm a dog that doesn't want to disclose all the truth. One boy was called in and he said here are the books that you furnished to me. They assaulted me even further and they said I should open the wardrobes and they searched the house, all the rooms looking for those books. My brother came and asked what was happening, why was I being assaulted and they told him to keep quiet and they will attend to him later. They took me with them to the police station and Mathebula kicked me and they were even burning me with cigarettes. Every, even in the kombi they had started doing that, burning me with cigarettes. When we got to the police station Mr Mathebula again assaulted me further until I fell down. He tubed me in the police station and I was taken out and they insisted that I should show them the books. Then Mr Mathebula further assaulted me brutally. I fell down and when I tried to wake up Mr Mathebula continued and I was shot right here on my knee and have a problem. He didn't shoot me but he hit me with the butt of a gun. I stayed for four days at the hospital before I went home. MR LEWIN Could we please have quiet. This is the time for the witnesses to tell their stories and we need to give them the chance to do that. Now could you tell us a little bit about these pamphlets, these books which you say the police wanted or which they said you were giving. What were they? MRS MKHWANAZI Those were books of the ANC and we used to read them. I didn't see anything wrong with them and I didn't see the reason why they said students should refrain from reading such books but I did give this other boy these books and he took them with him to school and supplied others and came back and I gave him some more stock and he supplied them around, and I was assaulted as a result of that, until my knee injury. MR LEWIN Can I ask where you actually got the books from? MRS MKHWANAZI From Swaziland. MR LEWIN If you could, it must be very painful for you remembering it, but tell us a little bit more about how they assaulted you. In your statement, your original statement you did give some more details. MRS MKHWANAZI Mr Mathebula was assaulting severely, asking me about these banned ANC books that I kept supplying to the students and I should point to the person who supplied all that to me. I refused completely to show him the person. I did say and agreed to the fact that I gave the students the books. I agreed to that fact. MR LEWIN Could you just tell us how he assaulted you. In your statement you talked something about your neck, what happened to your neck. They put around me a tube filled with water. I don't know how they did that but when I woke up I was wet all over. MR LEWIN So you actually lost consciousness. MRS MKHWANAZI Yes I lost consciousness. MRS MKHWANAZI Mr Mathebula kicked me and also instructed me to wake up and I was also suffocated. MR LEWIN Could we please have quite. And when you were shot, what reason was there for you to be shot, were you running away or was this completely unexpected? MRS MKHWANAZI Won't you please repeat your question? MR LEWIN When you were shot, you say you were shot in the knee. Was there any reason for that, were you running away, had you expected to be shot? MRS MKHWANAZI I expected that they would hit me with the back of the gun on my knee and they were insisting that I should get into the back of the kombi to point out other people and he insulted me and said he will kill me. I'm a dog. I fell down after he kicked me. When I woke up I felt my knee was so hot and painful and I could tell that I had been injured. Other people said he shot me and he said he didn't shoot me but he shot at the floor. They dragged me into the combi and they put the light on and said, "You see you've shot the lady". MR LEWIN And then what, after they took you to the hospital, did they then leave you finally? MRS MKHWANAZI Yes they left me finally. They never came back to look at me or try to see how I was faring and I asked my family to bring my clothes because I knew that they will come back and arrest me after some time. MR LEWIN Just two more questions. How is your knee now, does it still bother you? MRS MKHWANAZI I no longer use it because each time I try to kneel I have difficulties, even if I try to work due to this. MR LEWIN Could you take us back a little bit and give us some details about your time in prison, because you say you spent four years five months and then eight years later. What was it like? MRS MKHWANAZI It was hard because sometimes we would not ge given food and at times we would be given food. MR LEWIN And what were you actually charged with at the time? MRS MKHWANAZI They said I had a meeting that was not allowed legally and was a leader in reinforcing the movement of collecting the passbooks. MR LEWIN And when you were in court, did you have a lawyer to defend you? MRS MKHWANAZI No I had no lawyer at all. MR LEWIN Were you charged on you own or were you charged with other people? MRS MKHWANAZI I only had one who was since arrested and pointed at me that I'm in Northmead and working there as a domestic worker and that's how I was arrested because they followed me and arrested me. MR LEWIN And can you just tell us where and when you were charged? MRS MKHWANAZI The police charged me and kept saying I'm not the right person to be kept in the community. MR LEWIN No I just wanted to know where that happened and when it happened? MRS MKHWANAZI Even here they used to say I'm not the right person in the community because I'm a supporter of the ANC organisation. MR LEWIN So that was in Piet Retief? MRS MKHWANAZI That's correct yes Piet Retief. MR LEWIN Thank you Mama, I'll pass you back to the chairman. CHAIRPERSON Dr Ally. DR ALLY Mrs Mkhwanazi, you mention in your statement names of two alleged perpetrators, Mathebula is one. Can you just tell us why you mention how you knew this person and how this person can still be reached or contacted? MRS MKHWANAZI I don't know because he was staying at Mlomo because I heard that he was a member of the Flying Squad in Ermelo and I was told that he was taken from his home. DR ALLY Did you know him before you were picked up or were you told his name by somebody else? How did you get to know this person? MRS MKHWANAZI I used to see him and I heard people saying he was Mr Mathebula and he had nothing to do with me until he came to me and told me that he knew much better than I thought. DR ALLY And have you seen him since this incident that you described? MRS MKHWANAZI You mean after this incident? DR ALLY After, yes? MRS MKHWANAZI I never saw him and I didn't intend to see him ever. Even when the police van came around I would hide. DR ALLY And then you mentioned somebody but you only give a nick-name that this person was known as Doctor. Is that correct? MRS MKHWANAZI Yes he is Doctor. Even at the police station they refer to him as Doctor each time they call him. DR ALLY Was he also at Ermelo Police Station? Is that where this person was based? MRS MKHWANAZI I think so but there were six in the combi, six of them and they were the ones who were burning me with cigarettes around my neck. DR ALLY And this person who was known as Doctor, do you have any other information about him? Anything else that may help us to find out who exactly you are speaking about? MRS MKHWANAZI I wouldn't know because even the surname I do not know. DR ALLY Thank you very much. CHAIRPERSON Mr Manthata. MR MANTHATA You will excuse me if I'm repeating a question. The question was, in which court did you appear and in which prison were you kept for those four or so many years? MRS MKHWANAZI When I was arrested I was sent to Boksburg and the case was conducted in Benoni and I was sent to Boksburg prison. MR MANTHATA You say you were against the carrying of passes. Am I correct? MRS MKHWANAZI Yes we didn't want the pass. MR MANTHATA Can you remember when the Pass-Laws came to an end? Which year was this? MRS MKHWANAZI It was around 1960. MR MANTHATA This was 1960, are you saying that the carrying of passes was brought to an end in 1960 or are you saying the passes were brought about in 1960? MRS MKHWANAZI They were brought about in 1960. MR MANTHATA My question is, when were they brought to an end, when were people no longer forced to carry passes? MRS MKHWANAZI You mean the ones that we have, the current ones? MR MANTHATA The current ones are just called ID's, they are not called dompasses that people used to carry before. MRS MKHWANAZI I don't know. MR MANTHATA But you know that there was an end to carrying dompasses? MRS MKHWANAZI Yes I'm aware of that. MR MANTHATA Let's leave that. Then you were distributing books to students. Do you know of any student who was arrested because of distributing books that you had given to them? MRS MKHWANAZI Yes. MR MANTHATA What became of those students? MRS MKHWANAZI They were assaulted and were arrested as well. MR MANTHATA Can you tell us at least one of their names? MRS MKHWANAZI I only knew the garden boy Daniella Hlope, the other one I didn't know. MR MANTHATA At that time were you a leader of any organisation? MRS MKHWANAZI I wasn't a leader but I was a follower just like other followers. MR MANTHATA And the children that you were giving the books to, were they in any organisation themselves? MRS MKHWANAZI They were ANC members. MR MANTHATA You mean that they were ANC in 1983 or ...(intervention) MRS MKHWANAZI In 1986. I gave them the books in 1986 ...(intervention) MR MANTHATA They were already members of ANC? MRS MKHWANAZI I wouldn't know if they were members yet I used to see them especially during the rally. MR MANTHATA No further questions. CHAIRPERSON Mrs Mkhwanazi, is there anything else you want to say? MRS MKHWANAZI There is nothing else I would like to say. I'm just experiencing pain from my injured knee. CHAIRPERSON Mrs Mkhwanazi your story echoes the story of so many ordinary people in our country. People were arrested just because they stood up against what we would look now upon as a very stupid law called the dompass or the pass law, but yet thousands of people went to prison for that. You also suffered because you stood up and began distributing information leaflets from organisations that were banned, but nonetheless what you were doing was you were distributing ideas, ideas that many of our people have fought for and have died for, and again you suffered. I thank you very much for coming and sharing your story with us today.