hrvtrans HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATION HEARINGS 1996-11-26 GUGULETU 7 POLLSMOOR 1 CT/OO625 LIONEL PAULSEN LOUISA PAULSEN, LEONARD PAULSEN SHOT AND KILLED BY POLICE https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=55766&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/hrvtrans/polls/ct00625.htm DR ORR Ms Paulsen good morning I just want to ask the briefer to switch the microphone on. Thank you verby much. Are you the only person going to give evidence. Your husband also wants to give evidence Mr Paulsen. Well then fine I would ask both of you to take the oath. Then we will listen to your evidence and if you husband wants to ask anything we will give him the opportunity to do so. I am first going to ask you to take the oath. Do you have any objections to taking this oath. LOUISA PAULSEN: Duly sworn states DR ORR Mr. Paulsen will you stand please. Will you give your full names please for the record. LEONARD PAULSEN Duly sworn states DR ORR Please be seated. Ms Glenda Wildschut will assist you in telling your story. I will ask you to proceed then. MS WILDSCHUT Good morning Ms Paulsen. How are you today? MS PAULSEN I am a bit tense this morning. I am glad to be here to be telling the truth this morning but in the past I was unable to talk about this incident. This morning it is 'n privilege to talk about this. MS WILDSCHUT What happened on the 29th of August in Athlone as all the leaders were taken to jail. But on the 29th everybody came back to Mitchell's Plain. Can I just interrupt please. Could I ask the briefer just to put the microphone a bit nearer to you. Perhaps they should just unfasten the tape. Are you comfortable. I am sorry that you had to interrupt you. MS PAULSEN Eisleben and Spine Road were the streets where all these took place. Nobody could walk down those roads, only the police were allowed. I do not live far from Eisleben Road. My son came home and like children were - are was inquisitive. Then when he went there he was shot and killed. I was at work and they called me and they told me that my son had been shot. MS WILDSCHUT Please take your time Ms Paulsen when you are ready you can continue. MS PAULSEN Having arrived there they chased us away like dogs and said go and find your son's body in the morgue. My husband tried to negotiate with them, but they wanted to arrest him. But then some friend who were with us had to calm him down. These two boys they were 13 years old Lionel and Quentin were 13 years olds and they both died. There were thousands of people but why did the police shoot the children? ... end of Tape One, side A ... that day the 29th of August, I still remember that. I had two sons Lionel 12 years and Karel 13 years. That day I lost two sons. Karel did not study any further. He could not make any progress in school at all. He went to school, came back in the afternoons, threw down his rug sack. They tried to give him psychiatric treatment but even today he is still suffering. He never talks about his brother. You can't even ask him the same thing twice. We also don't discuss this at home. We just keep quiet about his death. This was a big struggle even up till today. Friends and colleagues at work, my husband and my family assisted me and assisted me up till today but it is still very, very hard for me to cope with this. MS WILDSCHUT Ms Paulsen can we ask you a few questions just to provide clarity regarding your testimony? Presumably Karel and Lionel walked from school together or were they together? MS PAULSEN MS WILDSCUT So Quentin and Lionel were together. Did Karel see how his brother was shot. MS PAULSEN No fortunately, when they called him his brother was still living. He sat with him while he was dying and the principal and the teachers at the school tried to take to take him to the hospital. Yes it happened early that morning while he was still at school and then the Casspirs came into the school grounds and then they shot into the school grounds. They shot tear gas then he passed out because of that. He was the only child who had passed out because of this tear gas. And then they took him to the Day Clinic and then the teachers sent all the children home and they brought Lionel home personally. MS WILDSCHUT Have you ever heard what kind of bullets killed Lionel? MS PAULSEN He showed me a photograph where he had been shot, he was shot in his face and in his chest. He was shot with rubber bullets, but it penetrated his chest and that is what caused his death. Or then that I heard or the only news I got was from the lawyer, there was never a court action. We never heard who were the guilty people - who had shot my son. Never ever did a policeman approach us to tell us this is what had happened. So up till today, the family does not know what had happened. The only thing we know is that the police had shot them, why and how we do not know. MS WILDSCHUT I just want to ask you a few things about Karel. You feel that Karel is not healthy or is not well after this incident, have you ever approached a doctor or a psychiatrist apart from the psychiatrist he saw at school. MS PAULSEN MS WILDSCHUT Do you feel that he is very depressed? MS PAULSEN Yes he is suffering because he and his brother were like twins, they grew up together, they played together, they did everything together. MS WILDSCHUT Ms Paulsen I wonder whether your husband would like to add anything - but before I would ask your husband to say something, I wonder whether my other colleagues would like to ask you any questions. Fine we can proceed with Mr Paulsen. Good morning Mr Paulsen, thank you for having come today. Do you want to add anything to what your wife has told us. MR PAULSEN My wife ran away, she ran home. And then I ran after her, she threw her handbag away and I followed her home. Having arrived there, my mother in law, she is blind, she is deceased now, and I asked her what had had happened. And after I had asked then he ran away and he ran into the tear gas again. And afterwards I had to go and fetch him. I brought him back, having arrived home, and they said I could phone my mother in Calitzdorp, but I was unable to speak. And then we went to the mortuary and found his body there. For three months I had this pain in my chest to tell the honest truth, I loved that child dearly. Lionel was only 12 years old, you could sent him to the Town Center to pay insurance or to do anything. We could sent him to the rent office to pay electricity, he could work with a lot of money and he came back and he would give us the receipts. And then he said Mommy I was hungry, so I bought a packet of chips. So I said that was your payment for that. We were a good solid family, both of these boys played rugby at school, but it was very-very difficult for me. This is all I want to say. MS WILDSCHUT Apart from Karel do you have any other children at the moment - do you have any other children? MR PAULSEN MS WILDSCHUT So you adopted a child? MR PAULSEN Yes, to replace Lionel. MS WILDSCHUT Thank you Mr Paulsen. MR PAULSEN Thank you Glenda. ADV POTGIETER Were you at any stage after this incident called to court, summoned to Court? MR PAULSEN ADV POTGIETER What did they tell you in a small little room in Wynberg. MR PAULSEN ADV POTGIETER Because, did they give you any answers there. MR PAULSEN No nothing at all. ADV POTGIETER And could you find out how the shooting incident had happened. MR PAULSEN All that I heard when I came home, the people told me that the Casspir came down Eisleben Road. And down Westpoort Avenue and it turned left at the robots, and then somebody jumped out, ran up and then from the house they shot over the vibracrete wall into the school grounds. ADV POTGIETER I am sorry you wanted to add. MR PAULSEN And the neighbour said Lionel is cold and she put a blanket over him and they asked Kallie and he held his hand till he died. ADV POTGIETER Our investigative team researched this whole incident to see what we could determine or find out about this incident. It seems that an inquest was held and there are police records which our Investigative team found and it seems as if the police who were involved, that was the Riot Squad. It is not clear from the police records from where they came. You also said you heard various stories from where they had come. But they were part of the Riot Squad. According to them there was a blockade, there were barricades in Eisleben Road, right across the little passage where he was killed and then some of these police hid behind a wall in the vicinity of where the barricades were. And it seems that it was those police who were hiding behind the wall who shot Lionel and Quentin. From the records it appears that the police alleged that after they had hid behind the walls - after they had shot, they moved away and then the people said two - they told the police that two little boys have been injured and then only did they realize that two young boys had been shot. It seems as if your son and Quentin were inquisitive and were just trying to see what was happening in the road near the barricade. And it seems as if they were shot while they were just watching what was going on. There is no indication whatsoever that they were involved in anything illegal, it seems as if they were just onlookers - that they were just inquisitive and were shot in the process. According to the Magistrate who conducted the inquest a Mr Van Greunen according to our records - nobody could be held accountable for this incident and it seems as if the police testified before him that in the first place they admitted to having shot the two sons, they admitted that they shot and killed these two boys, but they alleged that their lives were in danger. And that they acted in self defence. So that is the official explanation put to the Court regarding this shooting incident. And this is how far our own investigation has progressed. We are in the process of trying to find these two policeman who admitted to having shot these two sons - these two boys, to get hold of them. We will keep you informed of what will happen further. I just wanted to bring this under your attention so that you can know what we are doing about this matter. But in any case thank you very much for having come here today. There is very little we can do at this stage and we do not have words to make you feel any better. It must have been a terrible blow for parents to loose a son at such a tender age. And it makes it even worse as if it seems that this - that your son had lost his life without any reason. He was just inquisitive and he was just standing there. But by investigating this matter and finding out - trying to find out what had happened. We recognize the contribution your pain had made to bring us to where we are today. Thank you very much for having come and we will keep you informed. MR PAULSEN May I just ask something in the last instance, how can they say that two young boys can threaten them? ADV POTGIETER We as a Commission is not bound to the findings of other organizations - we just start afresh with our investigations and therefore we are justified in asking for explanations and this is one of the questions they have to answer. We will provide the answers in the end. MR PAULSEN Thank you very much. ADV POTGIETER It is a pleasure.