hrvtrans HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATION HEARINGS 1996-11-26 GUGULETU 7 POLLSMOOR 1 CT/01434 REV JAN DE WAAL REV JAN DE WAAL BEATEN BY POLICE AND, LOST HIS EYE https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=55771&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/hrvtrans/polls/ct01434.htm ADV POTGIETER Reverend De Waal, good morning, and welcome here. If the microphone is on, . I am going to ask you to take the oath before you sit down. JAN DE VILLIERS HOFFMMAN DE WAAL Duly sworn states ADV POTGIETER Please be seated. Ms Wildschut will assist you - will lead you in giving evidence - so I hand over to her. MS WILDSCHUT Good morning Reverend, REV DE WAAL Good morning. MS WILDSCHUT REV DE WAAL Okay I will also try and repeat what has been said already this morning by other witnesses. In that period, as we have heard also - there were many states of emergencies all over the country. I am not sure whether the Western Cape was included. But the week before the march - it was not a secret march. I mean, it was in the newspapers and I remember on the 24th or the 25th - Dr Boesak, being and ultimate Democrat was still negotiating with Mr Le Grange, then Minister of Police. He sent him a telegram to say that this march will be peaceful and this march, to a large extent, was as symbolic march. I mean, there was no idea that we would physically go into Pollsmoor prison and break Mr Mandela out. But the understanding was to tell this Government - and to show it also to the people inside, and outside South Africa that we believed that Mr Mandela was our true leader. There was also a memorandum drawn up - that would have been handed to Mr Mandela. Now we have thought that the Government would be big hearted enough to allow that to happen. I remember on the Friday, the 23rd Dr Boesak - then had a meeting - it was held at the University of Cape Town. Announcing that the march will take place. There were threats from the Government that they would ban the thing all together and he has spoken very clearly and - you know, invited the police to stay away, because normally with these marches, and UDF meetings - there were always so many UDF marshals and we have always contained the massive crowds. So, there were no threat to the downfall of the Government or any misbehaviour. After he has spoken, he - I think 5 minutes after he had left the buildings where he spoke, he was arrested and he was taken by military plane that night to Pretoria Central Prison, where he stayed, I think, for 5 months at least. On that Wednesday, the 28th when the march was then suppose to take place, we arrived at - I together with around 8 or 9, with my colleagues - from my denomination together with a big other crowd of clergy and people also from other religions to meet at the Athlone stadium. I mean when we came there, it was already chaotic. The police cleared the stadium. I mean, there was no way you could get in. They have I think the previous night, slammed a ban of around 5 km - no one was suppose to come near that. And the police were there in full force. I might be wrong, but I think there were also quite a number of Army people there as well. I mean there were chaos on the area just outside the stadium. I mean, they were clearing that area very clearly with sjamboks and batons and shooting tear gas all over the place. We were confronted at one stage in a very narrow street with vibracrete walls both sides - by policemen standing shoulder to shoulder. So, in the end we had to turn back. We went to the Lutheran Center nearby. And from there we went to Hewitt Training College. I guess we were between 3-thousand - 4-thousand to 5-thousand people together there. There was a long debate whether the march should go on or not. And many people - students and clergy and everyone was saying, what they was saying. In the end there was a sort of democratic consensus, that it will continue. From there, we proceed, we got eventually onto Kromboom Road - which is leading towards the M5. And the idea was we would turn off the M5 and then walk the way, eventually reaching Pollsmoor prison, quite a distance from there. So, I went forward to him and told that it is impossible for 5-thousand people to disperse, especially where you have all the restrictions on the side of these roads. So we have asked them to give us some time to talk to the people and see what alternative plan we can work out, because , I mean, there was no alternative - in their understanding in that was this confrontation and this brutality which followed then, not long after that. I remember I was trying to get this man up on his feet. Then suddenly I just felt a blow and I mean I was out for a while. One of the policemen hit me with a baton. Now the thing is fairly thick and not so long, but he hit me from the back and that thing bent over, right over my head. I was growing a sort of a Rhenostores horn in my front head, immediately after that. Then suddenly I start feeling into this eye-ball in my right hand side which - and there was nothing. It was such a commotion. There were helicopters above. I mean, the press people there. It - and then I just heard the screaming of the people, I mean that was terrible. As the police went through the crowd and the problem was - those at the back could run, but those on the sides had to wait for the people at the back to run in order to get away. And that stage, as the Sheikh said this morning, the clergy somehow got lighter off than many other people. But at that day, on the 28th, you know, it was irrespective of what crete or colour or what standing in the society you would have. And somehow they reconstructed my eye. I am not sure, I spent 10 or 12 or a little bit more in - at Groote Schuur. Then I also heard that many of my colleagues were arrested, as you have already heard this morning. I also know that some of the sympathetic doctors and nurses there, told me that the Security Police came to the hospital quite a few times, trying to get in and trying me and I am not so sure what they wanted to do with me at that stage. I also reflect, that if Mr Mandela was released, say in 1985, I mean he probably should never been in jail. If he was released in 1985, it would have given this country a kick start and a head start of at least 12 years. Then the process we had to go through. Now, people are saying - look at the crime, look at the violence, look at all of that. Now of course it is a transition we have to go through. But we could have gone through that 10 to 12 years ago. And this society could have been much more normalized and we would have gone on with our lives and we could have established democracy and freedom. And human rights, as we wanted to have it. I thank you. MS WILDSCHUT Thank you for your testimony Reverend. I wonder if I could just ask a few questions. Perhaps for some clarity and also to understand the situation a bit better. Could you perhaps tell us what your role and what your designation was at the time of the march. And perhaps - were you part of the planning for the march? REV DE WAAL Ja I am not sure whether I was so much in the inner circle, part of the planning of the march, but I mean - to me it sounded a very good idea. And in that stage, there were a lot of church people involved in the UDF. I mean, many of the patrons of the UDF were from the church backgrounds. And I believe also that with the church background in that, that the understanding of peaceful resistance really came into a clear perspective. MS WILDSCHUT I know that there was a lot of pandemonium and commotion and sadness and death on that day. Do you think that - you also mentioned that many people were injured at the time. Are you aware of about how many people were killed and injured on that day? REV DE WAAL MS WILDSCHUT Can I just ask about your injury? It seems as though the emergency operation, the doctors were able to re-construct your eye, but you obviously still have consequences of that injury. Perhaps you can just give us some idea of what the side effects, or the consequences were of your injuries. REV DE WAAL Look, I have lost - I am not sure what percentage of sight, but at least around 50% in my right eye. The left one recovered perfectly. I have been, since that time to many eye specialists. I have taken treatment and now I am still - I am stuck to some eye drops. It is difficult to fix my eye with laser technology. So, it seems to me, the only solution is a cornea transplantation. On the other hand, that is also a risky thing, there are no proof that it will work. So, of course, I am hampered by reading potential. I read a little bit less than I have done in the past, but it is also true that the human bodies are also wonderful that one can adjust. That the one eye can take over many more strains. MS WILDSCHUT ADV POTGIETER Wendy Orr. DR ORR Reverend, I am just going to ask you a little bit about the hospital. As I ask this, because I obviously have a particular interest in the role of the medical profession and human rights abuses. You say that you heard the Security Police came to the hospital, looking for you and potentially looking for other people. Are you aware that doctors or nurses actually pointed people out to the police? REV DE WAAL No, not at all. The people of the nursing and medical profession - that treated me there, and I was there nearly for two weeks, I mean they were very excellent. I remember this professor made it very clear to the Security Police that I am under his jurisdiction for the time of my treatment and hospitalization. And he will not allow them to interfere with that, till the time that when he thinks I would be ready to leave the hospital. DR ORR Thank you very much. ADV POTGIETER Rev De Waal, thank you. Can I also just say that we are just as happy that you are alive and you are able to come and tell this story to us and share the experience with us. Thank you for having taken a stand. We know that in those days it was unpopular and even dangerous to take a stand, as you have and others have in this - in this incident and very many other incidents - before and after that. But thank you for coming and thank you for reminding us of what we have lost in the process and how irrational this whole thing is, because today President Mandela - I think it is fair to say - he is excepted across the board - by most of the people in this country, as the natural leader and a great national asset to all of us - black and white. And what you say just underlines the irrationality of all this. I mean in 1985, when all this happened - if President Mandela was allowed back into the community at that stage, what difference it would have made. But thank you for coming. You have physically lost a lot in the process. You have lost the amenities of having your full eye sight and so on and that is appreciated. We know that at one stage, the only people that could really take up the struggle and the move towards normalizing the country, were - was the clergy and thank you very much to you and your colleagues who have actually taken that stand. And, you have obviously contributed very largely to what we have today through that. Thank you very much for coming.