hrvtrans SUBMISSIONS, QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS, CORNELIUS ADOLF ODENDAL 1996-11-28 GUGULETU 7 POLLSMOOR 3 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=55776&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/hrvtrans/polls/odendal.htm ADV NTSEBEZA I believe you are also represented by Mr Brand, is that right? MNR ODENDAL Dis reg. MR BRAND That is correct Mr Chairman. I am here with Mr Odendal and the same procedures will be followed as the previous one, thank you. ADV NTSEBEZA Thank you Mr Brand. I will ask get advocate Potgieter to administer the oath. ADV POTGIETER Thank you Chairperson. Mr Cornelius Adolf Janse Odendal, will you please stand to take the oath? I accept you have no problems in taking the oath. CORNELIUS ADOLF JANSE ODENDAL Duly sworn states ADV POTGIETER Baie dankie, u kan sit. INTERPRETER Please be seated. ADV NTSEBEZA Now I believe that you are going to follow the same procedure as the previous witness. Mr Brand has indicated to me that you have a prepared statement and that you will read the statement into the record. MNR ODENDAL Dis reg mnr die Voorsitter. ADV NTSEBEZA Thank you sir. INTERPRETER That is correct sir. ADV NTSEBEZA You may proceed. MNR ODENDAL Ek, die ondergetekende CORNELIUS ADOLF JANSE ODENDAL verklaar hiermee soos volg: 1. Ek is 'n volwasse man en 'n gewese lid van die Suid- Afrikaanse Polisiediens. Gedurende 1986 was ek 'n majoor in die Suid-Afrikaanse Polisie, verbonde aan die Afdeling Onluste-eenheid, Westelike Provinsie, waar ek diens verrig het as die offisier tweede in bevel van die eenheid.. 2. Ek het 'n kennisgewing ontvang om te kom getuig voor die Kommissie vir die Waarheid en Versoening oor 'n voorval op 3 Maart 1986 waartydens sewe persone gedood is te Guguletu. 3. Uit die aard van die saak is my geheue oor die voorval wat meer as 4. Op Sondag 2 Maart 1986 laat die namiddag of vroeg die aand is ek te Wingfield deur Luitenant Liebenberg en Sersant Bellingham, wat beide verbonde was aan die Veiligheidstak, meegedeel dat hulle inligting ontvang het vanaf 'n bron dat 'n polisie Datsun E20 bussie wat daagliks lede en administratiewe personeel tussen Bellville en Guguletu polisiestasie vervoer het, na bewering op die hoeke van NY1 en NY111 Guguletu aangeval sou word die volgende oggend met die oog daarop om die insittendes te dood. Ons het beplan wat gedoen moet word om die aanval af te weer en die verdagtes te arresteer indien hulle sou probeer om die bussie aan te val. 5. Op 3 Maart 1986 om ongeveer 02h30 het ek bevel geneem van die polisielede wat die verwagte aanval sou moes verhoed en die verdagtes sou moes arresteer. Die lede is almal ingelig omtrent die inligting wat ontvang was en ek het die persone opdrag gegee om op sekere stragetiese punte in die gebied waar die verwagte aanval sou plaasvind, stelling in te neem. Hierna het ons beweeg na die area. 6. Ek en vyf van die lede onder my bevel het posisie ingeneem aan die oostekant van NY1 en onsself tussen die bosse versteek. Ons was in posisie teen ongeveer 05:00 die oggend. Ek kan onthou dat gerapporteer is dat die polisiebussie sonder probleme deur die kruising beweeg het en dat dit veilig die Guguletu polisiestasie bereik het. Presies wat daarna gebeur het, is ek nie heeltemal seker oor nie, maar om ongeveer 07:25 het 'n Datsun E20 bussie wat voldoen het aan die beskrywing van die aanvallers se bussie, van suid na noord stadig in NY1 voor my verby beweeg. Daar was slegs 'n nommerplaat voor aan die bussie. 7. Kort daarna het ek vier Swartmans sien loop in NY111 in 'n westelike rigting. Hulle het NY1 gekruis en een van die mans het op die noordwestelike hoek van NY111 en NY1 gaan staan en dit het vir my voorgekom asof hy wou water afslaan. 8. Ek het gesien dat Kaptein Kleyn en twee van sy manne in 'n motor in 'n oostelike rigting in NY111, die drie mans wat reeds besig was om in 'n westelike rigting te stap, nader en voor die persone stilhou. Kaptein Kleyn het uitgeklim en een van die mans het 'n voorwerp in die rigting van die motor gegooi. Ek het onmiddellik aan die persone saam met my geskree dat daar 'n handgranaat gegooi word. Kaptein Kleyn het platgeval en daar was 'n ontploffing links van die motor. begin hardloop, en ek het gesien dat van die persone in Kaptein Kleyn se groep op hulle vuur. 10. Ek het opgespring en met NY1 in 'n noordelike rigting gehardloop. Ek het opgemerk dat Adjudant Offisier Barnard en nog een van sy manne besig was om agter die drie mans aan te hardloop. Ek het opgemerk dat dieselfde wit E20 bussie besig was om in 'n suidelike rigting in NY1 die betrokke kruising te nader. 11. Terwyl ek hardloop het ek kort-kort sarsies skote agter my, naby die betrokke kruising gehoor. My aandag was egter op die voortvlugtende handgranaatgooier. Ek het gesien dat hy val, maar hy het aangehou hardloop en na regs opgeswaai na die brug om te kyk of van die aanvallers nie aan die ander kant van die bosse uitgekom het nie. Ek het egter niemand daar gesien nie. [En ek gaan vir u nou wys hoe ek op gehardloop het, ek sal weer terugkom. Die doel hoekom ek by die bruggie op gehardloop het, was om te sien of van die persone wat in die bosse in hardloop nie miskien aan die ander kant uitkom op die N2 waar die groot pad geloop het nie, ek het egter niemand daar gesien nie]. 12. Nadat ek myself tevrede gestel het, dat my manne die situasie onder beheer het, het ek teruggekeer na die kruising van NY1 en NY111. By my aankoms het ek die verdagte wit bussie op die suidwestelike hoek van NY1 en NY111 aangetref met 'n Swartman, het. 'n Ander Swartman het op die suidoostelike hoek van NY1 en 13. In NY111 op die sypaadjie het ek nog 'n Swartman aangetref met 'n handgranaat langs hom. Op die noordwestelike hoek van NY1 en NY111 is daar nog 'n Swartman aangetref met 'n vuurwapen op sy maag. Al die persone was dood. 14. Met verdere ondersoek het ek 'n Swartman op die noordelike kant van NY111 dood aangetref. Dit was die persoon wat volgens my waarnemings die handgranaat na Kaptein Kleyn gegooi het. 15. Verder die bosse in het ek nog twee Swartmans dood aangetref. By handgranaat. 16. Ek self het geen skote afgevuur tydens hierdie voorval nie, behalwe dat ek gesien het dat die persone in Kaptein Kleyn se groep, vuur in die rigting van die voortvlugtende handgranaatgooier. Ek het ook nie gesien hoedat enige van die ander oorledenes gedood is nie. 17. Sover ek kan onthou was opdragte aan die lede gegee om te verhoed dat die aanval uitgevoer word en dat gepoog moes word om die aanvallers te arresteer, afhangende van omstandighede en met begrip van die veiligheid van die lid of lede wat die arrestasie sou uitvoer. Uit die aard van die saak, was die bepalings van die Strafproseswet 1977 met betrekking tot die uitvoer van arrestasie en die gebruik van geweld van toepassing op die situasie. MR BRAND Mr Chairman with your permission then will I hand in the signed statement of Mr Odendal and he will then answer any questions that will be put to him regarding this specific incident. ADV NTSEBEZA Very well Mr Britz - I mean Mr Brand sorry. Thank you - any questions from the panel - Mary Burton? MS BURTON Thank you Chairperson - Mr Odendal you mentioned the meeting that you attended on the 2nd of March [intervention] MR BRAND Excuse me Mr Chairman, can I just - I just want to arrange something here for the witness to understand the English questions - sorry? MS BURTON MNR ODENDAL Nou hoor ek u baie goed. INTERPRETER Now I can hear you very well. MS BURTON Thank you, you referred to the meeting of the 2nd of March, which you attended at Wingfield and you mentioned the presence there of Lieutenant Liebenberg and Sergeant Bellingham. Can you recall whether there were any other people there? MNR ODENDAL Kaptein Liebenberg was daar en Sersant Bellingham was teenwoordig gewees, so ver ek kan onthou. INTERPRETER Captain Liebenberg, Sergeant Bellingham were there - as far as I can remember. MS BURTON And that was that the first meeting of that kind that you have attended, regarding this incident? MNR ODENDAL Dis korrek. INTERPRETER That is correct. MS BURTON Thank you, then when you were at the scene, at which stage were reinforcements from Murder and Robbery called for? Was that before or after the shooting? MNR ODENDAL INTERPRETER No, madam Chair, Mr Chairman - I am sorry. Planning was done beforehand and the people gathered half past two to do the main planning to decide where the strategic points were. Where they should be deployed. I do not know who had contacted these people. MS BURTON Thank you, then you mentioned, when the hand-grenade was thrown, did you yourself see that it was a hand-grenade? MNR ODENDAL INTERPRETER The person made a movement with his hand and before the hand-grenade had exploded - I said a hand-grenade was going to be thrown. MS BURTON So you thought that it would be a hand-grenade and you instructed your people to take evasive actions. MNR ODENDAL INTERPRETER No, the people were hiding in the bushes, or rather, we were sitting and the bushes and warned them that a hand-grenade was being thrown. MS BURTON I see, thank you chairperson. I have no further questions. ADV NTSEBEZA Pumla Gobodo-Madikizela. MS GOBODO Thank you Chairperson. Good afternoon to you. According to your knowledge, are you aware of any involvement of Vlakplaas in the operation on the day - the 3rd of March 1986? MNR ODENDAL Ek dra geen kennis van Vlakplaas-mense wat betrokke was. Luitenant Liebenberg het vir my meegedeel hy was van die Veiligheidspolisie en Sersant Bellingham, ek het geen kennis gedra van Vlakplaas nie. Vlakplaas manne het maar die laaste paar maande of jaar in die koerante verskyn. INTERPRETER I have no knowledge whatsoever of members from Vlakplaas being involved. Lieutenant Liebenberg informed me that there were people from the Security Police, but I had no knowledge what so ever of people from Vlakplaas. The Vlakplaas member, their names only appeared - these last few years in the papers. MS GOBODO Thank you - our investigators have established that the occurrence book at the Guguletu police station - for March 1986 is missing. Do you have any - yourself, do you have any records that you are aware of the Riot Squads that we can perhaps refer to? MNR ODENDAL Daar was destyds rekord gehou by die Onluste-eenheid - [onduidelik] gehad dis korrek waar daar voorvalle aangeteken is van enige onlus-voorval. INTERPRETER Record was kept at the Riot Squad - they had a log book. That is correct, in which incidents were documented - any incident. MS GOBODO MNR ODENDAL Mnr die Voorsitter, ek het geen kennis daarvan gedra nie. INTERPRETER Mr Chairman, I have no knowledge whatsoever. MS GOBODO Thank you. ADV NTSEBEZA MS WILDSCHUT MNR ODENDAL INTERPRETER I can see you speaking ja - you can call me Sir or Mr. MS WILDSCHUT MNR ODENDAL Dit hang van die omstandighede af - dit hang hoe ver jy van die handgranaat af is, hulle het my met 'n handgranaat gegooi en ek was ernstig beseer in 1985. INTERPRETER It depends on the circumstances. It depends on how far you are - they threw a hand-grenade at me in 1985 and I was seriously injured. MNR ODENDAL Maar as ek so in 'n kamer is en hulle gooi die handgranaat op die bed kan daai persoon gedood word - as jy 30 meter daarvandaan staan, dan kan jy miskien net 'n skrapnel wond op doen. INTERPRETER MS WILDSCHUT But that is in relation to a person being close to the hand-grenade, but if it were to land on the ground or whatever, can you just describe what kind of damage there would be if a hand-grenade were to land? MNR ODENDAL INTERPRETER I am not an expert, but it can do a lot of damage. It depends on the position where the person is standing. Is he lying, is he sitting. MS WILDSCHUT You mean the position of the person launching the grenade? MNR ODENDAL Nee die posisie van die persoon wat die handgranaat na gegooi word. INTERPRETER No, the position at whom the hand-grenade was thrown. MS WILDSCHUT Okay - I am not interested in an individual now, I just would like to get an idea of what the area would look like if a hand-grenade were to land in a particular area. Can you give me some idea of what it would look like? UNKNOWN COMMISSIONER If it would land here? MS WILDSCHUT Yes imagine a hand-grenade were to land near that pillar, for example. MNR ODENDAL Daar sal 'n gat in die vloer wees - sement - as dit sand is, sal daar 'n groot diep gat wees. INTERPRETER There would be a hole in the ground - there would sometimes be a deeper hole in the ground. MS WILDSCHUT Yes, a very deep hole. MNR ODENDAL Dit sal 'n diep gat wees ja. INTERPRETER Yes a very deep hole. MNR ODENDAL Afhangende van die handgranaat tipe - handgranaat tipe. INTERPRETER Depending also on the type of hand-grenade. MS GOBODO What type of hand-grenade okay I accept that and the pillar, what would happen to the pillar? MNR ODENDAL Dit kan die pilaar beskadig. INTERPRETER The pillar will be damaged. MS WILDSCHUT Can you describe the kind of damage to that pillar. MNR ODENDAL INTERPRETER MS WILDSCHUT MNR ODENDAL INTERPRETER As I have already told you, it can kill people. It can make - cause a hole in the ground. It can do a lot of damage, it can break windows. MS WILDSCHUT Yes, so the windows will be shattered, that pillar would be completely damaged. There will be quite a deep hole in the floor here. MNR ODENDAL INTERPRETER MS WILDSCHUT MNR ODENDAL Ja. MS GOBODO Now what were to happen if there were to be a very small pillar - about maybe just about this size? What would happen to that pillar? MNR ODENDAL INTERPRETER MS WILDSCHUT MNR ODENDAL INTERPRETER No, as I have said, it depends on the circumstances. MS WILDSCHUT Okay sure - okay but I am just trying to connect my experience with what you are saying. MNR ODENDAL Ja. MS GOBODO You were watching the video did you not? MNR ODENDAL Dis - ja. MS WILDSCHUT At the place where the person who was doing the video - pointed out where the hand-grenade had landed, did you notice the damage that was caused in the area? MNR ODENDAL Daar was 'n gat as ek onthou. INTERPRETER There was a hole, if I can remember well. MS WILDSCHUT Yes, but it was very close to a little white pillar that was painted in white. There was a pillar completely in tact, standing right next to that little hole that you described. MNR ODENDAL INTERPRETER MS WILDSCHUT Okay, all right, except that for the record we notice that the pillar was completely in tact where the hand-grenade had landed. Thank you very much. ADV NTSEBEZA MEETING ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION ADV NTSEBEZA We still have witness, Colonel Odendal? I just have to remind you that you are still under oath and questions are now going to be put to you by advocate Potgieter. CORNELIUS ADOLF JANSE ODENDAL Still under oath ADV NTSEBEZA Advocate Potgieter. ADV POTGIETER Thank you chairperson. Mnr Odendal, was u in die omgang terwyl u nog diens verrig het as 'n polisiebeampte algemeen bekend as Dolf Odendal? INTERPRETER Where you, while you were in service as a policeman, generally known as Dolf Odendal? MNR ODENDAL Dis korrek ja. INTERPRETER That is correct. ADV POTGIETER INTERPRETER You say that it was only you and Lieutenant Liebenberg and Sergeant Bellingham who were present at this meeting, the evening before this operation. That was on the 2nd of March 1986? MNR ODENDAL Dit kan moontlik wees dat daar een of twee meer persone was, maar dis wat ek kan onthou. INTERPRETER This is as far as I could remember, but I think that was what it was like. ADV POTGIETER As daar - as daar 'n ander senior beampte teenwoordig sou gewees het, sou u seker dit onthou het. INTERPRETER If there was another senior officer present, you would have remembered that? MR ODENDAL Yes, I would have remembered that. ADV POTGIETER Iemand soos Kaptein Kleyn? INTERPRETER Something like Captain Kleyn or something. MNR ODENDAL Ja. ADV POTGIETER Was daar - was daar inderdaad enige kwessie van die Moord en Roof-eenheid by daai vergadering genoem gewees, want dit lyk dit was uself en Liebenberg en Bellingham alleen wat daar was dan - moontlik alleen. Daar mag moontlik iemand anders wees, maar nie 'n offisier nie, so dit lyk asof Moord en Roof nie verteenwoordig was eintlik nie. INTERPRETER Was there any question that the Murder and Robbery Unit was involved in that matter? Was it only you, Liebenberg and Bellingham - where those the only people present at the meeting? Where there other people? For example an officer? It seems to me that Murder and Robbery was not presented there. MNR ODENDAL Sover ek my kan herinner was hulle nie daar verteenwoordig gewees nie. Alhoewel as ek reg kan onthou, sal hulle ook die oggend daar gewees het, want dit was ons beplanning gedoen, waar hulle moet wees. INTERPRETER As far as I can remember they were not presented there. All though if I remember correctly they would have been there the next morning, because this was how we had planned. ADV POTGIETER Was dit - was dit die beplanning en Liebenberg en Bellingham gedoen het dat ons - u gaan vir Moord en Roof ook intrek in die optrede? INTERPRETER Was that the planning that you and Liebenberg and Bellingham did that you were also going to involve Murder and Robbery in this action. MNR ODENDAL INTERPRETER This is not what I said. ADV POTGIETER Ek wonder wil u nie daardie mikrofoon miskien net so nader aan u trek nie, hy kan - hy kan beweeg - sit hom so nader aan u dan kan ons vir u duideliker hoor. INTERPRETER I wonder would you like to put the microphone nearer to you, it can move. Then we can hear you better. ADV POTGIETER Baie dankie. INTERPRETER Thank you. ADV POTGIETER Maar - maar u was in bevel van die optrede gewees. INTERPRETER But you were in charge of this whole operation? MNR ODENDAL Dit is korrek ja. INTERPRETER That is correct. ADV POTGIETER So - so wat het u beplan, het u beplan dat Moord en Roof moet ook inkom? INTERPRETER So, what did you plan? Did you plan to involve Murder and Robbery? MNR ODENDAL INTERPRETER No, I did not contact Murder and Robbery. In the planning we were divided up into strategic positions and it was noted where the people should take their positions. ADV POTGIETER Maar hoe kon hulle dan nou in die operasie gekom het as u as die bevelvoerder die persoon in beheer van die optrede nou nie hulle ingeroep het nie? INTERPRETER But how could they be involved in this operation, if you as the person in charge, did not involve them in the planning? MNR ODENDAL INTERPRETER Lieutenant Liebenberg told me that the people from Murder and Robbery will also be present. ADV POTGIETER So - so wat het u dan nou beplan op die 2de, want dit lyk asof Luitenant Liebenberg al meeste van die werk gedoen het. INTERPRETER So, what did you plan then on the 2nd It seems as if Lieutenant Liebenberg had done all the work beforehand? MNR ODENDAL Nee ons het beplan die aantal mense wat ons gaan inkry en waar elkeen moet 'n strategetiese punt moet inneem - waar sy voertuig moet wees, want ons het geweet waar die aanval na bewering gaan plaasvind. INTERPRETER We planned how many people would be involved. Where they would take up their strategic positions, because we knew where this attack would presumably happen. ADV POTGIETER Nou u was die tweede in bevel van die Onluste-eenheid op daai stadium. INTERPRETER You were the second in charge of the Riot Squad at that time. MNR ODENDAL Dit is korrek. ADV POTGIETER Nou hoe het dit dan gekom dat u daar is en nie die persoon wat in bevel van die Onluste-eenheid is nie. INTERPRETER How was it then that you were there and not the person in charge? MNR ODENDAL Ek was maar - as tweede in bevel van die Onluste-eenheid was ek die man wat altyd in die gebiede op die grondvlak die werkings verrig het. INTERPRETER I was there as second in charge of the Riot Squad. I was the person who had to do the work on grass roots level. ADV POTGIETER Dis korrek, ek meen u het 'n - u het - u was baie bekend gewees in die woonbuurte ensovoorts in daai jare - in die jare van die onluste. INTERPRETER You were well known in the townships during the time of the unrest. MNR ODENDAL Dit is korrek. ADV POTGIETER En u was bekend as Dolf Odendal ek meen - mense het u amper almal geken in die woonbuurt, nie waar nie. INTERPRETER And you were well known as Dolf Odendal. All the people in the townships knew you. MNR ODENDAL Dis korrek. ADV POTGIETER U was by baie optredes betrokke gewees. INTERPRETER You were involved in many incidents. MNR ODENDAL Ja ek was by baie optredes dis doodreg. INTERPRETER Yes, I was. ADV POTGIETER En daar is 'n hele klomp verhale wat 'n mens hoor van wat gebeur het waar Dolf Odendal na bewering betrokke was en so aan - amper - u was so bekend was u gewees eintlik maar in die...[intervention] INTERPRETER There were many stories which have been told about where stories about Dolf Odendal being involved. MNR ODENDAL En baie verhale wat nie getoets is onder kruisverhoor om te hoor dat dit die waarheid is nie. INTERPRETER Many stories have been told yes, but not proved. ADV POTGIETER INTERPRETER MNR ODENDAL Dis korrek. ADV POTGIETER INTERPRETER You were a well known man. This was why I am interested to know why you were involved in this action. Was it because of your record of action? MNR ODENDAL Nee, ons het baie - is ons ingeroep saam met die Veiligheidspolisie Deursoekingspan [onduidelik] en ander eenhede. INTERPRETER No, not at all. Often we were called in with the Security Police and other units. ADV POTGIETER Maar hulle verkies om u - die tweede in bevel in plaas van - u - hulle het u verkies bo die persoon wat in beheer was van die eenheid. INTERPRETER But they prefer you - second in charge to the commanding officer. MNR ODENDAL Of die persoon of waar hy gewees het, hy kan miskien op verlof gewees het of op 'n kursus. INTERPRETER ADV POTGIETER Nou het u gesien enige persone word geskiet op die toneel? INTERPRETER Did you see that any person was hit or was being shot? MNR ODENDAL INTERPRETER As I have already said in my statement, is the person who threw the hand-grenade at Captain Kleyn, ran away in a northern direction. MNR ODENDAL En toe is daar op die persoon geskiet en hy het - een van die persone - toe het die persoon nog weggehardloop het - het geval. INTERPRETER And then they fired shots at that person who was running away and that person fell. ADV POTGIETER So u het gesien dat daar word geskiet en een persoon val? INTERPRETER So, you saw that people were shooting and one person fell down? MNR ODENDAL Dis korrek. ADV POTGIETER U het geen ander persone gesien wat geskiet word nie? INTERPRETER MNR ODENDAL Nee niemand nie. INTERPRETER No, nobody at all. ADV POTGIETER U kon uit die aard van die saak nie sien dat dit 'n handgranaat is wat gegooi word nie, nie waar nie? U was versteek in die bosse. INTERPRETER You could not see that it was a hand-grenade that was been thrown, because you were hiding in the bushes. MNR ODENDAL Ja maar waar dit gegooi is, ek kan nie die hand wat die beweging oorkom, het dit ontplof, toe weet ek dis 'n handgranaat. INTERPRETER I could just see from the movement that this man made and I could see the explosion - after it had detonated. ADV POTGIETER Ja maar ek meen dit is eers - dit is eers na die voorval gebeur het - nadat die ding gegooi was en ontplof het wat u nou gedink het, maar dis 'n handgranaat nie terwyl dit gegooi word, nie waar nie. INTERPRETER MNR ODENDAL INTERPRETER No, while the man took out his hand and he made this arm movement - I said, there he is throwing it. It could have been a stone, but then the explosion followed. ADV POTGIETER So u was maar net gelukkig gewees, u het reg geraai. MNR ODENDAL Reg geraai ja. INTERPRETER You were lucky, because you guessed correctly. ADV POTGIETER Nou daai persoon wat u gesien het wat geskiet word, wat nou gehardloop het, het daai persoon enige wapens by hom gehad. INTERPRETER That person you saw, being shot, who was running away - was he carrying any weapons? MNR ODENDAL Ek kan nie meer onthou nie. INTERPRETER ADV POTGIETER MNR ODENDAL INTERPRETER ADV POTGIETER Nou saam met u daar in die bosse was Barnard. INTERPRETER Together with you, in those bushes, were Barnard, ADV POTGIETER En McMaster? INTERPRETER McMaster? MNR ODENDAL Ek kan nie onthou of McMaster daar saam met my gewees het nie, maar Sterrenberg was saam met my gewees. INTERPRETER ADV POTGIETER En u het 'n - het u saam met hulle beweeg van waar u was aan die oostekant van NY1 oor na die westekant toe. INTERPRETER And did you move with them from where you were on the eastern side of NY1 to the western side? MNR ODENDAL Dis korrek. INTERPRETER ADV POTGIETER En het u op 'n stadium toe nou weg van hulle af beweeg? MNR ODENDAL Dis korrek. INTERPRETER ADV POTGIETER En het u op 'n stadium toe nou weg van hulle af beweeg? INTERPRETER Did you, at a certain stage, leave them behind and moved away from them? MNR ODENDAL INTERPRETER I could show you again if you want to. ADV POTGIETER Nee-nee dis all right ons sal sien of ons mekaar nie sommer kan verstaan soos ons praat nie. INTERPRETER ADV POTGIETER Hulle twee het in die bosse ingehardloop - hulle het verdwyn van u af. INTERPRETER They ran away into the bushes and you did not see them afterwards? MNR ODENDAL Dis korrek ja. ADV POTGIETER U het hulle nie verder gesien en gesien wat hulle doen nie. INTERPRETER MNR ODENDAL Nee. ADV POTGIETER Het u enige skote gehoor daar in die omgewing waar hulle was? INTERPRETER Did you hear any shots being fired? ADV POTGIETER Barnard en Sterrenberg? INTERPRETER There Barnard and Stellenberg were running too. MNR ODENDAL Terwyl ek gehardloop het, was daar so baie skote afgegaan. Ek kan nie spesifiek onthou of ek daar skote gehoor het nie. INTERPRETER MNR ODENDAL INTERPRETER There was a lot of shots fired. ADV POTGIETER So u is nie seker of daar skote daar van daai - uit daai bosse uitgekom het nie. INTERPRETER ADV POTGIETER Het u verwag daar gaan 'n skietery wees? INTERPRETER Did you expect that shooting was going to take place on that specific day? MNR ODENDAL Die betrokke dag? ADV POTGIETER Ja. MNR ODENDAL As 'n man met terroriste te doen het, moet jy dit verwag het dat daar 'n skietery kan wees, dis korrek. INTERPRETER If you have to do with terrorists, you can expect that there will be some shooting. MNR ODENDAL As die persoon nou nie oorgee nie, dan vind 'n skietery plaas, dit kan moontlik - dis 'n moontlikheid wat ek voorsien het. INTERPRETER And if the person does not give himself over, then you can expect and have to foresee the possibility that there will be shooting. ADV POTGIETER Nou u was in beheer gewees. INTERPRETER You were in charge of this operation. MNR ODENDAL Dis korrek. ADV POTGIETER En u het verwag dat daar gaan 'n skietery wees. INTERPRETER You expected that shooting would took place. ADV POTGIETER Waarom het u toegelaat dat die polisiebussie daai oggend nog steeds daai roete ry? INTERPRETER Why did you allow the police bus still to follow that route that morning? MNR ODENDAL Om die aanvallers aan te keer, te arresteer. INTERPRETER Because we wanted to apprehend the attackers. ADV POTGIETER So - so u wou hulle uitlok? INTERPRETER You wanted to entice those people? MNR ODENDAL Nee ek bedoel nie vir uitlok nie, as 'n man inligting dis 'n plek wat geroof of aangeval word, moet jy as 'n polisielid stappe neem om daai persone te arresteer. INTERPRETER If you have information that a person or an object is going to be robbed, you have to be there to apprehend them. ADV POTGIETER En om onnodige lewensverlies te verhoed. INTERPRETER And to prevent a loss of life, is that also necessary? MNR ODENDAL Onnodige lewensverlies - ek glo dis korrek. INTERPRETER Yes. ADV POTGIETER So jy sal nie jou eie mense goedsmoeds daar in 'n situasie in stuur waar jy verwag hulle sal so 'n voorval gebeur nie, nie waar nie - as 'n verantwoordelike polisiebeampte? INTERPRETER So, you would not send your own people into a situation which you would expect that a shout out would take place - as a responsible officer, would you do that? MNR ODENDAL Ek verstaan die vraag nou nie mooi nie. INTERPRETER ADV POTGIETER As a responsible policeman, that where you are responsible for those people and you expect that shooting will take place, why would you send your own people into such a situation? Why would you allow the bus to follow that route? MNR ODENDAL INTERPRETER It is important for the people - for the attackers to be able to apprehend them, because you want to entice them? ADV POTGIETER So - so om hulle aan te lok? INTERPRETER Because you want to entice them. MNR ODENDAL Dis nie om hulle aan te lok nie. INTERPRETER MNR ODENDAL Nou om die regte persoon in die hande te kry. INTERPRETER It is to get hold of the correct person. ADV POTGIETER INTERPRETER Now, you expect that an attack will be launched and you want these people. MNR ODENDAL Dis korrek. ADV POTGIETER INTERPRETER You want them to execute their plan so that you can arrest these people. MNR ODENDAL Dis reg. ADV POTGIETER En daarom stuur u nou die voertuig daar in sodat u kan hulle kry om te probeer om die voertuig aan te val. INTERPRETER And this is why you sent that vehicle there, so that you can entice them to attack this vehicle - is that not so? MNR ODENDAL As die voertuig deurkom en die voertuig word aangeval moet daar - moet daar opgetree word teen hulle. INTERPRETER If the vehicle is being attacked, you have to act against them. ADV POTGIETER Ja maar die rede hoekom u nie die voertuig gestop het nie, dis eintlik die punt. ADV POTGIETER Ja maar die rede hoekom u nie die voertuig gestop het nie, dis eintlik die punt. Want u wou gehad het dat hierdie mense moet die voertuig aanval. INTERPRETER MNR ODENDAL Nee ek wil nie gehad het hulle moet die voertuig aanval nie. ADV POTGIETER Waarom het u dan nie die voertuig gestop nie? MNR ODENDAL Die voertuig gestop nie? ADV POTGIETER Ja. MNR ODENDAL Die voertuig wil mos deurgaan. INTERPRETER How could I stop the vehicle - the vehicle had to go that way. ADV POTGIETER Maar u weet dan nou die voertuig gaan aangeval word. INTERPRETER But you knew this vehicle was going to be attacked. MNR ODENDAL Ek het nie geweet hulle [onduidelik] ADV POTGIETER INTERPRETER MNR ODENDAL INTERPRETER As I have said already, we allowed the vehicle to go through, to be able to apprehend the attackers . ADV POTGIETER En omdat u gedink het dat - as u daai voertuig stop, dan gaan daar nie 'n aanval wees nie, nie waar nie. INTERPRETER ADV POTGIETER Dis mos logies. INTERPRETER MNR ODENDAL Ja dan is die voertuig deur, maar daar kan daar ander polisievoertuie deurgegaan het wat ook aangeval word. ADV POTGIETER Nee maar - nee maar u weet mos nou - u weet mos nou waaroor die aanval gaan. Dit gaan spesifiek oor daai bussie, wat op 'n spesifieke tyd in die oggend by daai kruising verbygaan. MNR ODENDAL Dit is korrek ja. INTERPRETER No, but another police vehicle could have gone that same route, but you know now what it was all about. It was specifically aimed at this specific bus which would have crossed that intersection at a specific time. ADV POTGIETER En dis waaroor u beplan het die vorige aand, u het die hele ding gedoen want u het betroubare inligting gehad dat daai voertuig gaan aangeval word. INTERPRETER And that was what you had planned the previous evening, because you had reliable information that this vehicle would be attacked. MNR ODENDAL Dis korrek ja. ADV POTGIETER INTERPRETER And it is just simple to say, or rather you could have stopped that vehicle. MNR ODENDAL Daai voertuig kon gestop het, maar dan kan hy miskien die volgende week gekom het as 'n man so redeneer so u nou redeneer, dan het hulle 'n ander voertuig aangeval. INTERPRETER Ja you could have stopped it, but then the next - but if you reason like that, they could have attacked another vehicle the next week. ADV POTGIETER Moontlik - moontlik nie. MNR ODENDAL Moontlik. INTERPRETER Possibly, yes. ADV POTGIETER Maar hulle sou minstens - hulle sal minstens nie daardie spesifieke voertuig aanval nie, want u het dit gestop. INTERPRETER MNR ODENDAL Dis korrek ja. ADV POTGIETER Nou verstaan ek nie waarom...[tussenbeide] MNR ODENDAL Die moontlikheid - die moontlikheid het bestaan dat hulle kan aangeval word ja. INTERPRETER The probability could have been that they could have been attacked. ADV POTGIETER Nou verstaan ek nog nie vir u - hoekom het u dan nou nie maar die bussie gestop nie. INTERPRETER MNR ODENDAL U moet besef dat in daai tye daar terreur plaasgevind het, dit was die polisie se taak om op te tree en die persone uit te haal en in die hande te kry, want die aanvalle pleeg. INTERPRETER You have to realize that terrorism was occurring during those times. It was the task of the police to get hold of those terrorists, those attackers. ADV POTGIETER So u wou - u wou graag sien dat die mense hierdie aanval loods. INTERPRETER So, you wanted - you wanted those people to launch this attack MNR ODENDAL Ek wil nie sien dat die - as hulle die aanval geloods het soos hulle dit gedoen het, ons sou hulle gearresteer het. INTERPRETER And now if they had attacked the little bus, we would have arrested them. ADV POTGIETER En u het - u het eintlik as deel van die beplanning het u die polisiebussie ook in aanmerking geneem. U het beplan vir die polisiebussie ook as ek dit korrek verstaan van Superintendent Liebenberg. INTERPRETER As part of your planning, the police bus was also taken into consideration. You also made plans for this police vehicle - if I understand correctly what Liebenberg had said. MNR ODENDAL Die polisiebussie wat deurgery het. ADV POTGIETER Dis reg. MNR ODENDAL Dis korrek. INTERPRETER The police vehicle which crossed the road. ADV POTGIETER So dit was - dit was ook amper soos 'n Trojaanse perd daai ene wat daar deurgegaan het. MNR ODENDAL INTERPRETER That was actually like a Trojan horse which passed the inter section. ADV POTGIETER Die mense moet dink maar dis - dis die - dis die gewone polisie wat daar verbyry en hulle - hulle is niks vermoedens nie, dit was die idee gewees. U wou daai indruk skep. INTERPRETER And the people had to think that was the ordinary people going that way and they could not suspect anything. Was that the impression you wanted to create? MNR ODENDAL Ja as u dit so wil stel, kan u dit so stel. INTERPRETER Yes, if you want to put it like that way, it could be. ADV POTGIETER En eintlik - en eintlik was dit ook maar 'n tipe van 'n lokval, want binne-in daai bussie was daar mense wat gereed was. MNR ODENDAL Natuurlik was hulle. ADV POTGIETER Om ook aan te val. INTERPRETER But that was also a kind of an ambush, because in that little bus there were people who were ready also to attack? MNR ODENDAL As hulle aangeval word, moet hulle vir hulle lewens - dis korrek. INTERPRETER Yes, if they were attacked, they would counter attack. ADV POTGIETER Was die idee nie dat u in elk geval daai voertuig bussie - polisiebussie laat deurgaan het deur die - deur hierdie interseksie nie. Omdat u geweet het in elk geval die ding was so beplan dat u geweet het dat hierdie sogenaamde terroriste nie 'n kat se kans staan nie. Dit is so beplan dat hulle eintlik in 'n lokval ingelei word. INTERPRETER Was the idea not that that little police bus had to drive through that intersection - allow it to drive through the intersection. The planning was accordingly because these so-called terrorist had not the faintest chance to attack you. MNR ODENDAL Nee [onduidelik] ADV POTGIETER Daar is geen risiko - met ander woorde laat ek net voltooi, met ander woorde daar is geen risiko vir die bussie nie - die polisiebussie nie, u het klaar daarvoor ook beplan. INTERPRETER MNR ODENDAL Nee ek het nooit daarvoor beplan nie, want as jy 'n persoon lewend vang, lewendig vang, en nie doodskiet nie, kan jy mos baie meer inligting uit hom uitkry. As u nou beweer ons het beplan om die mense dood te skiet. INTERPRETER ADV POTGIETER Wat presies u weet - dis die ander ding, kyk u het die bussie sien u voor verby u beweeg. Now, you saw that little bus passing by. MNR ODENDAL Dis korrek. ADV POTGIETER INTERPRETER Then you saw that 4 people were walking in NY111 in a western direction, from left to right, on that plan. ADV POTGIETER Stap hulle verby die interseksie. INTERPRETER They walked passed the intersection. MNR ODENDAL Dis korrek. ADV POTGIETER En skielik is daar hierdie verskriklike voorval wat gebeur. INTERPRETER And suddenly is that terrible incident that happened. MNR ODENDAL Dis korrek - die lede was al besig om te onttrek van hulle punte af. INTERPRETER Because all these people came from the places where they were positioned. ADV POTGIETER Maar ek meen u was - daar was soveel polisie - u het dit so beplan dat die mense kan nie wegkom nie, u het die hele - u het die hele toneel onder...[tussenbeide] INTERPRETER There were so many police that it was - and these people were unable to get away. MNR ODENDAL Dit is doodreg ja. ADV POTGIETER Ja. MNR ODENDAL Doodreg hulle kan nie, ons het dit so beplan dat hulle nie kan ontglip nie. INTERPRETER That is correct - we planned it so they could not get away. ADV POTGIETER Absoluut - ek meen absoluut, u het alles voor die tyd beplan. INTERPRETER Absolutely yes. MNR ODENDAL Dis reg. INTERPRETER Absolutely yes. We planned all this before hand. ADV POTGIETER Daar was geen - daar was nie 'n element van verbasing by u gewees nie, surprise daar was nie 'n element daarvan nie. INTERPRETER You were not surprised at all. There was no element of surprise? ADV POTGIETER U het die hele ding in beheer gehad, u het mense gehad wat saam met die sogenaamde terroriste was. INTERPRETER You had this whole situation under control? ADV POTGIETER En u was aan die ander kant gewees, daar was geen risiko vir die polisie gewees nie. INTERPRETER There were people who were with these so called terrorism. You were - the police were on the other hand. ADV POTGIETER INTERPRETER There was no danger for the police involved. ADV POTGIETER Onder daai omstandighede, waarom gaan skiet u die mense dood? Waarom arresteer u hulle nie? INTERPRETER Under those circumstances - why did you kill those people? MR BRAND INTERPRETER MNR BRAND Dankie. ADV NTSEBEZA Advocate Potgieter. ADV POTGIETER ADV NTSEBEZA Mr Brand, what questions do you feel are being asked in such a way that words are put into the mouth of the witness. MR BRAND ADV NTSEBEZA ADV POTGIETER Thank you Chairperson. Mnr Odendal kom ons kom nou weer terug voor die onderbreking. INTERPRETER ADV POTGIETER U het alreeds toegegee nou in ons gesprek dat u dit so beplan dat die polisie in beheer was van die - van die toneel. INTERPRETER You have already admitted now, during our conversation, that you have planned that the police should be in control of this whole incident. MNR ODENDAL Dit is korrek, die polisie was in beheer van die toneel. INTERPRETER Yes, that is correct. MNR ODENDAL Ons was besig om te onttrek, as die persoon nie die handgranaat gegooi het nie, sou daar geen skietery plaasgevind het nie. ADV POTGIETER Ja. INTERPRETER The police was in control. We were busy withdrawing and if this person had not thrown a hand-grenade, there would have been no shooting. ADV POTGIETER Ja, maar u sien dit is die punt wat ek maak, waarom was daar geskiet gewees. INTERPRETER That is exactly my point. Why did that shooting take place? ADV POTGIETER En u was - u het verskeie polisiebeamptes gehad op die toneel, u het die moontlik gehad om te verhoed dat hierdie mense wegkom as hulle wil wegkom. U kon die mense konfrontreer met die feit dat u in beheer is van die toneel. U sien want julle is - julle is omsingel van die polisie staan stil. INTERPRETER MNR ODENDAL INTERPRETER ADV POTGIETER Wel - wel...[tussenbeide] ADV NTSEBEZA And I think what advocate Potgieter is trying to establish from you, is whether an effort was made at all by the police to arrest these people. For instance, was there any endeavour made through a loud hailer - seeing that you had surrounded these people from the description of how the police were placed. Was there anything of that nature that was attempted - when they were walking there. Walking, as I understand the evidence in a suspicious manner? MNR ODENDAL Dit - ons het nie dit nie gedoen om die mense deur 'n luidspreker te waarsku nie mnr die Voorsitter. Ek glo Kaptein Kleyn toe hy daar stilgehou het by die drie persone wat aangekom het, wil hy hulle ondervra en deursoek het. INTERPRETER We did not warn them through a loud speaker, because Captain Kleyn, when he stopped, he wanted to question these people and search them. ADV NTSEBEZA MNR ODENDAL Ons het nie 'n luid - ons het nie 'n luidspreker by ons gehad nie. INTERPRETER ADV NTSEBEZA MNR ODENDAL Mnr die Voorsitter, dit het alles het binne of baie vinnig gebeur. Ons het nie eers geweet die persone wat daar verby staan is die aanvallers nie. INTERPRETER Mr Chairman, all that happened within a few seconds. We did not even know that the people who were standing there, were the attackers. MNR ODENDAL Eers toe hulle die handgranaat gooi, en op daardie stadium was die meeste voertuig al besig om te onttrek en die polisiebussie wat deurgestuur is, was alreeds by Guguletu polisiestasie. INTERPRETER Only when they threw this hand-grenade, we realized that at that stage the police were withdrawing and the bus had also - had also left for Guguletu at that stage. ADV NTSEBEZA Just when you begin to think that it is not going to happen, that maybe it is going to happen on another day, but whilst you are still in a state of readiness, you see a Kombi - just like the one that had been described - is going to be coming to do the attack. You see from that Kombi, people coming out, people who might or might not have been answering to the description of the people you are expecting, but certainly young men. MNR ODENDAL INTERPRETER Mr Chairman, I never said, I saw people climbing from a bus. I was hiding in a bus. People were withdrawing. I saw those people walking by. I never saw any people getting out of a bus. MNR ODENDAL Hulle het oorgestap die een het gemaak of hy water af slaan, die ander het aangestap, Kaptein Kleyn het by hulle stilgehou, hulle het die handgranaat gegooi en net daarna het daar 'n woeste skietery plaasgevind. INTERPRETER One of them pretended to urinate. The others were walking on. Captain Kleyn stopped there. They threw a hand-grenade and then it was that this shooting took place. ADV NTSEBEZA Advocate Potgieter? ADV POTGIETER Just a minute - thank you chairperson, thanks for that indulgence. INTERPRETER Mr Odendal you have just said - just told the Chairman that you did not know those were the people you were waiting for. You did not know those were the attackers. ADV POTGIETER Maar dis mos nie korrek nie. INTERPRETER But that is not correct. MNR ODENDAL INTERPRETER I said people who looked suspicious. I did not say they were not the attackers. I only realized that they were the attackers after they had thrown the hand-grenade. ADV POTGIETER Dis - dit is die punt wat ek met u wil debateer - dis nie korrek nie, want sersant Mbelo 'n deel van u eenheid was, optreder, u was in beheer van hulle gewees. Hy het die mense geken. Hy het die aanvallers het hy geken - hy het geweet dis die aanvallers daai wat daar afgeloop kom. INTERPRETER That is not correct, because Sergeant Mbelo, a part of your Unit, you were in charge of these people, they knew - he knew those people. He knew the attackers - he identified them. MNR ODENDAL Maar ek ken nie eers vir Mbelo nie. INTERPRETER ADV POTGIETER Dis - dis baie eienaardig. INTERPRETER This is really strange. MNR ODENDAL Ek ken nie Mbelo nie. INTERPRETER MNR ODENDAL Ek ken ook nie vir Bellingham nie. INTERPRETER ADV POTGIETER Want u sien dit is die - dit is die eienaardigheid wat aan u gestel was deur die Voorsitter. INTERPRETER You see, that is what is so strange. ADV POTGIETER Ek probeer net daardie prentjie finaal inkleur dat hier kom Kaptein Kleyn en hy spring uit sy voertuig uit en hy konfrontreer sommer die mense. Dieselfde mense wie bekend is aan lede van die span waarin u van beheer is dat hulle die aanvallers is. So hy gaan konfronteer hulle sommer miskien uit die bloute uit. En nou gooi hulle die handgranaat - nou skiet - nou word hulle stukkend geskiet. INTERPRETER This is what the Chairman tried to explain. I want to give you the full picture. Now, here Captain Kleyn jumps from a vehicle - he confronts those people. The same people known to members of this team, who you were commanding, they identified them as the attackers. And suddenly he started shooting. And then they threw this hand-grenade and then they were shot to pieces. MNR ODENDAL INTERPRETER INTERPRETER ADV POTGIETER INTERPRETER MNR ODENDAL Hulle was nie by op die toneel nie, ons het op sekere strategetiese punte uitmekaar uit - weg van mekaar af gewees, dit was nie almal hier op mekaar by die hoek nie. U sien dis die...[tussenbeide] INTERPRETER We were positioned in certain strategic places. We were not all together on that one specific point. ADV POTGIETER Ek besef dit. INTERPRETER I realize that. ADV POTGIETER INTERPRETER I realize that and I am just asking - it is extraordinary just to suddenly confront those people. Where actually you just wanted to arrest them. And you said you did not know who those people were. MNR ODENDAL Maar wat moet Kaptein Kleyn gedoen het, hy moet tog daar by die mense stilgehou het en hulle ondervra het omdat hulle verdagt lyk. INTERPRETER What did Captain Kleyn then had to do? He had to stop, he had to question them. ADV POTGIETER Maar - maar hy was mos deel van 'n span gewees. Hy was mos nog onder - onder bevel gewees, hy het mos - kan mos nie net sommer doen wat hy wil nie. INTERPRETER MNR ODENDAL Ja. ADV POTGIETER Hy kon - hy kon mos nou - hy het - was hy in radio verbinding met u gewees as die bevelvoerder? INTERPRETER Was he connected by radio - connected by radio to you - you, as the commanding officer? MNR ODENDAL Ja ek glo hy was in 'n - ons het radio verbinding met mekaar gehad. INTERPRETER Yes, we were connected by radio. ADV POTGIETER Het hy aan u gerapporteer dat Kolonel hier is nou vier mense wat vir my baie agterdogtig voorkom, dit lyk vir my hulle kan die aanvallers wees, waar is Mbelo of waar is die mense wat die mense ken dat hulle net kyk of hulle die mense is of nie, het hy so iets gedoen? INTERPRETER Did he report to you that Colonel, here are 4 people who look very suspicious? They could be the attackers. Where is this person who could identify them? MNR ODENDAL INTERPRETER No, there was no time to report back to me. It is easy to say this afterwards, but everything had happened so quickly - it was completely different. ADV POTGIETER Ja maar die mense het mos nie u aangeval nie, hulle het afgestap gekom in die pad, een staan en water af slaan daar in die hoek en die ander drie stap lekker aan en hulle val niemand nie, nou skielik spring Kaptein Kleyn uit, en hy wil hulle gaan visenteer. Dit is eienaardig, dis al wat ek aan u wil stel. INTERPRETER But the people did not attack you. They were walking down the road. One was urinating. They did not attack anybody and now suddenly Captain Kleyn jumps from the vehicle and he wanted to confront them. This is strange. MNR ODENDAL Dit kan vir u eienaardig wees om te klink, die mense het hom aangeval - 'n handgranaat na hom gegooi. INTERPRETER It might sound strange, but these people attack him. But these people [indistinct] at him. ADV POTGIETER INTERPRETER This is according to the police version. MNR ODENDAL Dis op my weergawe en dis wat daar gebeur het, want ek was op die toneel. INTERPRETER This is my version, and that is what had happened, because I was present there. ADV POTGIETER Ja, thanks. ADV NTSEBEZA Thank you Mr Odendal. You will now be excused and thank you for having come. MNR ODENDAL Dankie mnr die Voorsitter. INTERPRETER Thank you Mr Chairman.