hrvtrans STATEMENT, QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS, RUDOLPH PAUL DAVID LAZARO 1996-11-27 GUGULETU 7 POLLSMOOR 2 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=55778&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/hrvtrans/polls/rudolph.htm ADV POTGIETER Thank you Chairperson, that concludes the testimony from those families who are available at this stage to have testified at this event hearing. There are two families who we have not been able to locate and ideally we would have wanted to give the opportunity to all five the families to participate in this special event hearing, although some of them have in the context of the general victim hearing, brought this particular matter to our attention. There are the families of Zola Alfred Swelani and Themba Mlifi who both also died in this incident, whom we have not been able to locate and arrange to be here today and to participate in the event hearing. Perhaps this will come to their attention and perhaps we can just repeat the invitation for them to get in touch with the Commission and for us to take their matters on board as well. But that concludes the testimony from the families. We will proceed to hear the evidence of Mr Rudolph Lazarro and I call him to come forward please - good day Mr Lazarro MR LAZARRO Good day meneer. ADV POTGIETER Do you prefer to give your testimony in English or Afrikaans? MR LAZARRO I will do both ways. ADV POTGIETER Okay. MR LAZARO Ja. ADV POTGIETER That is fine, so welcome. Thank you that you have come. Before we listen to your testimony I am going to ask you to stand and to take the oath please. RUDOLPH PAUL DAVID LAZARO Duly sworn states ADV POTGIETER Thank you very much, You may be seated. My colleague Pumla Gobodo-Madikizela will assist you. MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA Thank you Chairperson and thanks Denzil. Good morning Rudi and welcome again. MR LAZARO The same to you. MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA Just to give a bit of background into why you are here. Our investigator have come up with an incredible amount of evidence and details relating to the case that came became known as the Guguletu 7. And most - a lot of their evidence, suggest - of their findings, suggests an urgent need to re-investigate the case and to establish what exactly went on, on the day that we are talking about, the 3rd of March 1986. You have come here to help us understand the way the police evidence was paste together. You are one of the people who are going to assist us and perhaps just have to mention the context in which you will help us peace - understand how the evidence was compiled. Now, could you tell us a little bit why you went to the police station on the 3rd of March and what was the nature of the statements that you left at that police station and the statement that you remember having signed. Can you tell us about that please? MR LAZARO That is all I have said to them. MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA Did you get the impression that you were being pushed to admit that these people fitted the identity of the ones who had robbed you? MR LAZARO MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA What do you think the police at Bishop Lavis - police station were trying to do? MR LAZARO I thought they were trying to - to help me to get those robbers, but now they killed them. MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA When you say to trying to get them - can you be a bit more specific? I am sorry repeat - to state the question. MR LAZARO MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA So, even though their faces looked a little deformed, you were able to state very clearly that they were not the ones who robbed you? MR LAZARO Definitely, they were not the ones that robbed me, because those are - look they looked like decent people, those people. And those that have robbed me, I know them, they are not these ones. MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA And did you - can you talk about your statement now. You gave a statement for your insurance, for insurance purposes - what was in that statement? MR LAZARO And I went after that, I went to the police station, I have reported that same story to the police station and I undersigned that also. MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA Rudi - where did you live - which police station did you leave this statement? MR LAZARO MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA As far as you can remember, that is the only statement you ever made about the incidents? MR LAZARO That is the only statement I made. There was no other statements I made. MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA And when you were called by the police to identify the bodies of the seven, do you remember signing any documents at all? MR LAZARO MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA And when did you realize that your signature was used in another context? MR LAZARO When the investigator Commissioners came to my house, say about a few weeks back. MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA In other words was it Zenzile Khoisan who came to your house? MR LAZARO MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA And but I just need to understand how you were left out in the process, because your signature was used elsewhere and you never knew anything about this? Were you ever invited to attend the inquest in November 1986. MR LAZARO MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA And nothing - you received nothing to invite you or to say you are going to give evidence at an inquest, nothing about that at all? MR LAZARO MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA I am not making a mistake with their identification. I am sure that these are the people who had robbed me. The photograph number 05/6 is the person who wanted to shoot me in my stomach. [indistinct] and that is this evidence, you understand the contents of what you are signing for and their is your name at the bottom R. Lazaro and a signature as well. Now, what brought our Investigators attention to this is the fact that this signature looked a bit suspect, which is why they came to you and we are grateful that you could come and throw some light into - into all of this and try and help us understand how the police at the time created the evidence. And I will just pass this on to you to see how your signature looked like at the inquest hearing. MR LAZARO Thank you. MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA MR LAZARO MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA We would like - can speak into the mike please so that we can hear for the record. MR LAZARO No this is not my signatures not at all. MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA Thank you. UNKNOWN COMMISSIONER Are you sure? MR LAZARO I did - I did give the gentleman a sample. The other one, Mr Killian, hey I gave him a sample of my signature, without signing, I have him an old signature of mine also, a sample and he got it. I think it might be there by those papers. MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA Yes, we have it somewhere. Thank you so much, we really appreciate your coming, thank you. MR LAZARO MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA Thank you Rudi, thank you very much. MR LAZARO Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Thank you, any questions - Denzil Potgieter. ADV POTGIETER Thank you chairperson. Mr Lazaro, I just want to understand the photographs that you were shown were of people that were dead? MR LAZARO That is correct. ADV POTGIETER Where did they show you those photographs? MR LAZARO At Bishop Lavis police station. ADV POTGIETER And can you still remember who the - still remember who the police were that showed you these things? MR LAZARRO To tell you honestly. I might remember them if I see them, but it will be very vague. ADV POTGIETER MR LAZARO They came to my place, say long after the robbery. Not soon after the robbery, very long after the robbery. ADV POTGIETER MR LAZARO I signed it the same day, yes. ADV POTGIETER And that was the only time that you signed the statement MR LAZARO ADV POTGIETER The statement that you have signed on the day you have reported, was it hand written or was it typed. MR LAZARO It was handwritten. ADV POTGIETER And the statement that was shown to you now as Exhibit G at the inquest was a typed statement? MR LAZARO ADV POTGIETER Now I want to hand you an album of photographs. And ask you to have a look at that. Perhaps you can start specifically, because that is referred to in that statement of yours. DR705/86 there is photograph 68 and 69 - those are the last two photographs in the album that I want you to have a look at first and see whether you identify the person on those two photographs. And once you have done that, I want you to go to number 40. Start with number 40 and then look through the rest and see if you identify any of those persons. MR LAZARO I will do that. ADV POTGIETER Just have a careful look at it. You are now looking at number 68 and 69, is that correct? MR LAZARO Ja that is correct. ADV POTGIETER All right, do you identify the person on that? Recognize the person on that - on those two photographs? MR LAZARO ADV POTGIETER That was...[intervention] MR LAZARO ADV POTGIETER On the typed statement that was read to you now, there was an allegation that the person on DR705/ 86 is the person that wanted to shoot you in the stomach or something like that. MR LAZARO ADV POTGIETER MR LAZARO That is correct. ADV POTGIETER Would you turn back to number 40 and then just page through and see if you can identify those two people, perhaps on any of those photographs? MR LAZARO ADV POTGIETER But just have a look at the people who are shown on there. MR LAZARO ADV POTGIETER MR LAZARO ADV POTGIETER Thank you - thanks. MR LAZARRO Those people that was there, I can still remember - they were very light in complexion. ADV POTGIETER Thank you very much Mr Lazaro. I have got no further questions. Perhaps they can return the photo album. CHAIRPERSON None of you wanted to question him. MS BURTON Yes I would like to ask him. CHAIRPERSON Mary Burton? MS BURTON Mr Lazaro, I am the one that is asking you questions. MR LAZARO Thank you. MS BURTON You must have been quite surprised when the investigators from the Commission came to you after all these years to ask questions about all this? MR LAZARO I was very surprised. MS BURTON And how do you feel about it now? MR LAZARO MS BURTON Thank you very much. MR LAZARO Thank you. MS BURTON We are very grateful to you for your testimony in spite of the shock that it has caused you, thank you. MR LAZARO Thank you. CHAIRPERSON We just want to say thank you very much. Thank you for having been willing to come forward and one gets very deeply distressed. I mean, to find that it seems as if something you had faith, because you see, in those old days they would say - well this thing has gone to court and the Court has found and then most people. Certainly most white people would say - justice has prevailed and now we realize, I mean, that often - and often this justice was subverted in this kind of way. And it very distressing, because it meant that with the heart of our community, of our society - the heart of it was a lie. Thank you, thank you very much. MR LAZARO Thank you