hrvtrans SUBMISSION, QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS, GENERAL SIBACA 1996-11-27 GUGULETU 7 POLLSMOOR 2 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=55779&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/hrvtrans/polls/sibaca.htm ADV POTGIETER Welcome, good afternoon. Can the briefer just switch on that microphone, also. Are you - do you hear the translation - are you comfortable - do you hear everything? G SIBACA Yes, I can hear the interpreter ADV POTGIETER I am going to ask you to first stand and take the oath before we listen to your testimony - so can you please stand. G SIBACA Thank you ADV POTGIETER Can you give us your full names first? G SIBACA General Sibaca. ADV POTGIETER General Sibaca. G SIBACA My name is General Sibaca GENERAL SIBACA Duly sworn states ADV POTGIETER Thank you very much, you may be seated. In 1986 on the 3rd of March, to be precise, you were residing in the Dairy Belle hostel on the corner of NY1 and NY111, in Guguletu. Is that correct? G SIBACA Yes sir. ADV POTGIETER Where were you employed at that stage? G SIBACA I was working at the Dairy Belle, but I was actually employed at the Philippi branch. ADV POTGIETER Your address was room E18, Block E in the hostel, is that correct? G SIBACA Yes sir. ADV POTGIETER Now, that morning on the 3rd of March 1986, at about 7 o’clock, you witnessed certain incidents that happened in the vicinity of where you were living. I want to ask you to please explain to us, what it was that you saw happening? G SIBACA Thank you - what I saw when I woke up, having a bath, preparing to go to work - I saw two Kombi’s parked on NY111. The one, if I remember well, was white in colour and the other, light blue. There were white men standing next to these Kombi’s. I did not know what was going to happen. A short while after my bath, I heard a noise like a collision - two cars colliding. (Making noise) when I looked, there were two white men shooting. At the time, there were no shacks, it was just a forest. I saw people running towards the forest, they was getting shot at. The white man were along NY1, next to my restaurant - there was chaos. The others went into the forest. Until such time that they shot the window of my house, of the room that I was in, because I tried to hide, but I was curious. And I looked, I saw someone, I don’t know where he emanated from. It was a black man - he was being called by the white men. He lifted his hands up in the air and they took a gun from his waste. They snatched the gun out of his waste. Immediately after that, a white man from NY1, just above the restaurant, called out - saying skiet hom. He called out again, shoot him. He was kneed on the back and he fell on his back and was shot twice. The first bullet went off and the second one, and he died. I was watching, because I was looking with my one eye from my window, he had died. Another black man emanated again from the forest with white men, he had a plastic bag. He was wearing denim pants. He had a woolen hat on his head. I don’t know what he was carrying in this plastic bag. They walked to the place where the other person had been shot. I don’t know how many people were there, but when this group came, I saw the white man washing off the blood of the people that had been shot. I then went and prepared my breakfast. I could not go to work that day, because these white men were blocking the cars from moving, both at NY1 and NY111. That is all I have to say for now. ADV POTGIETER Now, did you then make a statement or tell somebody else what you saw on that same day? G SIBACA That same day, I went to the security at the gate to report the incident. So that I would not have to pay for the window that they had shot at - that had broken. I went to the security and told them exactly what happened to the window. Ten minutes after that people from Cape Times came and they were sent to me. I told them what happened. The police from Bishop Lavis, then came to my house - to my room and they saw exactly what happened. ADV POTGIETER And did the police also take a statement from you? G SIBACA They did not take a statement from me. They just called me to Bishop Lavis and I gave in a statement there. I gave it to the investigators. ADV POTGIETER Is that - was it after the incident happened that you spoke about a few day afterwards, after the shooting happened that you saw? G SIBACA It was the same day that I gave a statement. No days elapsed. It was the same day. ADV POTGIETER Now, let us just try and clarify it - you say that the first person you spoke to was the security guard. You reported the damage to your window and then soon after that you spoke to people from the Cape Times? G SIBACA It is exactly like that. ADV POTGIETER Can you still remember who the reporter was or reporters were that you spoke to from the Cape Times? G SIBACA One of them is here, I can point him out. ADV POTGIETER Who is that Mr Weaver or Mr Bateman. G SIBACA I don’t know his name, but I will point him out for you, there he is. ADV POTGIETER Okay - okay - yes, that is a reporter from the Cape Times. And his name is Mr Bateman, Chris Bateman. We will hear his testimony later on. G SIBACA Okay - all right - thank you. ADV POTGIETER Now I just want to - I just want to try and place your position where you were when you saw all of this happening. So that we have an idea, we have got some photographs of that area. I don’t know if it will be possible for you to follow this. And we also have a plan that we will be referring to, but that’s - let’s try the photographs first. I am going to ask you to have a look at - there are two photographs - 29 and 30. Which I will ask you to have a look at first. And I am going to ask you to see if you can see the hostel on any one of those two photographs. G SIBACA It is very confusing, because I am sure they took the pictures from a helicopter. They showed me this before, but it is confusing, because they were shooting from an aeroplane. I don’t know what is going on here. ADV POTGIETER Just take your time, don’t panic - take your time we are going to try and find out where that hostel is. Now there are two - there are two buildings. G SIBACA No, I won’t lie to you. I won’t say if this is it or that is it. No, because I mean this angle, it is from an aeroplane. I won’t know what is going on here. ADV POTGIETER All right let me see if I can’t help you perhaps. I want you to look at those two buildings, there are two buildings on that photograph. Yes, there is one with a red roof and there is one that looks like it is a cement building. The one looks almost like a school with a red roof, but I am not sure. So I am going to ask you to look at that, is that - is one of those perhaps the hostel were you were staying at? G SIBACA No, it is not a cement hostel. But the hostel roof is red, this one is green. It is not red. No, our hostel was very big. No, I would not admit to something I am not sure about. ADV POTGIETER No that’s fine - I don’t want to, because you have taken an oath to speak the truth - ask you to admit things that you don’t know of. G SIBACA Thank you. ADV POTGIETER Now perhaps I can see if we can’t orientate ourselves by asking a few - a few facts. The person that you saw putting up his hands and then being shot, can you remember where that person fell? Did he fall in the road or on the pavement or where did he fall? G SIBACA No, he fell on the pavement, not in the road. ADV POTGIETER And was that - was that the pavement closest to your hostel of the other side of the road? G SIBACA Right next to - it is behind my window, but still across the road. ADV POTGIETER And did that person fall there where he was shot - where he got the two shots, did he fall right there? G SIBACA Yes, it is so. ADV POTGIETER And if I understand your testimony correctly there was another person who was running towards the bushes, is that correct? G SIBACA I have said so. ADV POTGIETER Did you ever notice what happened to that person? G SIBACA He ran into the forest. I don’t know what happened in the forest, but he ran into the forest. ADV POTGIETER Mr Sibaca, were you called to give evidence in this matter? G SIBACA My name is not Sibaca - it is Sibaca. CHAIRPERSON You can just say General - [indistinct] his name. ADV POTGIETER All right - the Chairperson has just given me very good advice. Perhaps I should just call you General. G SIBACA If you just say Sibaca, it is all right, but I am not Sibaca. ADV POTGIETER That’s fine - I won’t try - I won’t try that, I will - with your permission I would call you General. G SIBACA Okay. ADV POTGIETER Is that all right - now were you - were you...[intervention] G SIBACA No, it is all right, you can call me General. ADV POTGIETER Were you never called upon to give evidence in court about this incident? G SIBACA I was called thrice - first to the Regional court in Wynberg. Then in the Parow - sorry, first it was in Cape Town, then Parow and then Wynberg - three times. ADV POTGIETER Thank you General. Now just finally - it appears from what you are telling us, that the person who put up his hands was shot after his firearm was taken away. So he was unarmed when he was shot. G SIBACA He was shot after his gun had been taken from him. They first took the gun from him and then they shot him. ADV POTGIETER Thank you very much for your testimony. CHAIRPERSON Thank you - any questions - Dumisa. ADV NTSEBEZA Mr Sibaca, I just want to ask, you said that after the Cape Times people came, the police arrived, is that so? G SIBACA What I said, is that the police arrived after the Cape Times people were there. This is after they had cleaned the blood off the road. ADV NTSEBEZA Was Mbelo a policeman? G SIBACA He was an investigator. ADV NTSEBEZA Thank you very much General. CHAIRPERSON [indistinct] Pumla Gobodo. MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA Thank you [indistinct] - I just want to be clear, when the police were calling you and the case was investigated, exactly what statement where they requiring from you, because I couldn’t - your statement you said that the police kept on calling you and prosecuting you, saying that they are going to arrest you. They asked how much Mr Bateman have given you, why did the police promise you money - what is it they wanted from you? G SIBACA They wanted to ascertain if I was an eyewitness or if I was just telling a story. MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA So as they kept on calling you and threatening you - threatening to arrest you, why then did they want to arrest you? G SIBACA They were just threatening. They were trying to ascertain if I was really an eyewitness or perhaps the Cape Times people had bribed me. MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA In other words, they wanted you to say that what you had seen was not true. The Cape Times people had bribed you. G SIBACA Yes, that is what they wanted me to do and then they would arrest me after that. CHAIRPERSON Thank you - Mary Burton. MS BURTON Thank you Chairperson, Mr Sibaca, is that right - just - it’s me. G SIBACA Yes - yes thank you. MS BURTON You - you remember very clearly what happened on that day, don’t you? G SIBACA It was a while back, but I remember quite a lot. MS BURTON I want to check with you - you said that after you had spoken to the Cape Times the police came and asked you questions, is that right? G SIBACA Yes, it is so. MS BURTON Did they take you to the police station to make a statement? G SIBACA They would take me to the police station at Bishop Lavis. They would use their own transportation. It wasn’t just once, it was either twice or thrice. MS BURTON So they started on that day and then on other days as well. G SIBACA Yes, ma’am. MS BURTON The reason I am asking is because the statement that we have seen has the date of the 12th of March on it. G SIBACA Was that the day they fetched me? MS BURTON No that was about nine days after the killings. G SIBACA There is none such. MS BURTON But you say that they came and they took - they asked you questions on several days? G SIBACA They started on that very same day, they fetched me that day. MS BURTON And you also went to the police station on some other days as well. G SIBACA Precisely. MS BURTON Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Thank you General. We are also grateful for the way you answer your questions. We can see that you are very sharp, because when you say - when we say his name is Chris Bateman, you say well if it is so - you don’t necessarily agree to it, you just say well if that’s his name - it’s all right. Thank you very much, because you certainly form a very good impression, create a good impression on any people listening because you were very careful, not for instance to speculate. You were asked what happened to the person who ran into the bush and you said you don’t know. Whereas it is easy to have tried to make out that - [indistinct] and we thank you for your contribution in our search for the truth. Thank you for your contribution as we are trying to get to the truth, thank you very much.