hrvtrans 1 C Q KENNY, HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATIONS, SUBMISSIONS QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS 1996-08-13 PRETORIA 2 CUNGANT QUEEN KENNY JB00119 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=55791&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/hrvtrans/pretoria/kenny.htm CHAIRPERSON ... and to, and is that a friend, a family member who is with you? Your sister. Welcome, I see your statement is in Afrikaans. Do you wish to speak in Afrikaans? MRS KENNY Yes. CHAIRPERSON Mr Tom Manthata is going to assist you with your evidence. MR MALAN Is it Mrs Kenny? INTERPRETER The speaker's microphone. MR MALAN Will you please rise. CUNGANT QUEEN KENNY (Duly sworn in, states). MR MALAN Thank you very much. You may sit down. INTERPRETER The witnesses microphone is not on. MR MANTHATA Mrs Kenny can you just relax. INTERPRETER The witnesses microphone is not on. MR MANTHATA Not on. INTERPRETER The witnesses microphone is off. MR MANTHATA Mrs Kenny, you are welcome. Can you feel at home. Can you please tell us what happened to Martin Patrick Mahlangu. MRS KENNY On the 18th of March in 1986 my sister-in-law called my husband and advised him that there were people looking for him. Two weeks later I received a letter which was addressed to my sister-in-law. It was a letter written PRETORIA HEARING TRC/GAUTENG 2 C Q KENNY in husband's handwriting. In there he instructed two men to come and collect some of his clothing. These two men came to fetch the clothes and they also asked for accommodation. Three days later they left. Since then I have never ever heard from my husband again. I started looking for my husband. I went to various hospitals, to various police stations and to various mortuaries. However, all of these searches were fruitless. At the time of my husband's disappearance we were married for three years. We were very close. I have never ever received any money from his previous employers. He worked at Siemens. Nine years later on the fifth of August in 1995 a policeman from the Department of Justice came to my home. At the time I lived with my sister. They then advised me that they suspected that my husband died nine years ago. I then had to visit the Department of Justice. They requested me to make a statement. One of the men who I accommodated at that time I recognised on that day. I immediately recognised him when I saw him. I had so many questions and he said that he was sorry and that he, in fact, was one of the policeman connected to Vlakplaas and that he regrets it and that he dearly regrets what he did to his own people. He also advised me that the last time he saw my husband was at Vlakplaas and he said that when he later enquired from other policeman they said that he was involved in a bomb explosion and that is how he met his death. I very much would like to provide my husband with a decent funeral. The police advised me that they are still awaiting on a reply from the Police General, but up until now I have still not heard anything from them. I feel that PRETORIA HEARING TRC/GAUTENG 3 C Q KENNY those policemen involved in my husband's killing should be prosecuted. I am not even able to acquire a home of my own. I am still struggling to come to terms with everything. My son is now 11 years old. I would very much like this matter to be investigated. My first question is when am I going to receive a death certificate? I would like to receive his money from his previous work of employ or place of employ. I would like the Commission to get behind the whole truth and to establish as to whether he is dead or not. MR MANTHATA Are you still going on, Queen? MRS KENNY No, I am done. MR MANTHATA You talk about the Civic Association man from Mamelodi. Did you know their names? MRS KENNY Not really. I did not really know them. I only heard from his one friend that he was a member of Mamelodi Civic. I heard that him and Stanza Bobape were both members. That is what I was told. MR MANTHATA Did Siemens ever try to help you to look for Patrick? MRS KENNY Not at all. At that time he was still employed at Siemens and his disappearance happened the night after he came back from work. So he was still employed at the time. MR MANTHATA What I mean is for the following days when they could not see him at work, did they not show interest in his absence? MRS KENNY Nobody came to ask me for anything. They did not enquire about him. I went to them and advised them that he had disappeared and that I am unemployed and that I had to look after the child by myself. They said that they were not able to give me any of his money because he had only disappeared, that they could only do so once I had produced PRETORIA HEARING TRC/GAUTENG 4 C Q KENNY a death certificate. MR MANTHATA I do not know whether I missed this. You talked or you referred to the Vlakplaas man. What is his name? MRS KENNY He said his name was Chris and was one of the Vlakplaas policemen. MR MANTHATA It was just Chris, no other name? MRS KENNY No, he only said that he was Chris from Springs. MR MANTHATA You say it was the second time he went missing. First was when he went to Swaziland. Were you already together at that time? MRS KENNY No we were not together. That is only hearsay, I only heard that he had disappeared. MR MANTHATA And then you talk of, is it, Bashirt in your statement. MRS KENNY He was also one of the organisers of the Mamelodi Organisations. So he also belonged to the Mamelodi Civic Organisation. He was a member. MR MANTHATA And you did not get his other names? MRS KENNY No, I did not get the other name. MR MANTHATA You did not. What other help did you get from your sister-in-law? The one who called your husband out and maintained that the people waiting for him are familiar to the family? MRS KENNY I did not receive any help or anything from them except that my sister-in-law said that he is man enough to find his own way home, but she was the one that received the letter. The letter was addressed to her. MR MANTHATA And she gave you the letter to read? MRS KENNY Yes, fortunately I was present and therefore I could recognise his handwriting. Although he signed the PRETORIA HEARING TRC/GAUTENG 5 C Q KENNY letter Putu which must have been his pseudo name. MR MANTHATA And there was no full address given. MRS KENNY No there was not. MR MANTHATA I am sorry. I have no further questions. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Tom. Wynand. MR MALAN Mrs Kenny, this person named Chris whom you recently identified was he personally present there at the Department of Justice? MRS KENNY Yes, I personally spoke to him. MR MALAN And he admitted that he was the person that came to your previously? MRS KENNY Yes and I even asked him what happened to my husband's clothes and he then said that he had given the clothes to somebody else. He said he gave the clothes to another person at Vlakplaas. MR MALAN And he also told you that he was prepared to give evidence in court, but you have never ever heard that he had appeared in court? MRS KENNY The Department of Justice said that they were waiting for the case to come up. MR MALAN You also said that you suspect that he might have turned State witness in the case of Captain de Kock. MRS KENNY I have not ever been to court. I have not been there. MR MALAN Have you ever heard that he had testified? MRS KENNY No, I have not. MR MALAN This was in August 1985. MRS KENNY Yes. MR MALAN And the year before you said that you had heard that he was prepared to appear in court, but up until now you have not actually heard him in court? PRETORIA HEARING TRC/GAUTENG 6 C Q KENNY MRS KENNY No, I have not. MR MALAN I think you have given us enough information and we would also therefore be able to assist you in obtaining a death certificate. We would also refer this information to the Amnesty Committee. I have no further questions. CHAIRPERSON You said that you had heard that your husband died in a bomb explosion. Did they ever explain the circumstances surrounding his death to you? Was it an accident or how exactly did this explosion take place? MRS KENNY I believe that this happened because he would not give information regarding the Mamelodi Civic Association. CHAIRPERSON And Chris did not say anything about this, about the circumstances. MRS KENNY Chris said the last time he saw him he was just lying flat and he was just lying. CHAIRPERSON Can you please repeat that? What did Chris say? MRS KENNY Chris said that the last time he saw my husband he was lying flat on his back and that he was not able to talk. CHAIRPERSON So, are you saying that Chris never actually saw the explosion take place, he only saw his body afterwards? MRS KENNY Yes that is so. CHAIRPERSON Thank you very much for your information and thank you for all the information in your statement. We will most certainly make a follow-up on all of these. Thank you very much. Has Mrs Maseku arrived? No. ... and we will be hearing testimony from people involved in the KwaNdebele PRETORIA HEARING TRC/GAUTENG 7 C Q KENNY incident. People from Mamelodi who were shot and burnt in KwaNdebele. Also people from the events in Mamelodi. The deaths that occurred as a result of the march in Mamelodi. I think today was a particularly important hearing for the Commission because I think that today we got, not only a good picture of just how many sided the conflict was, we had people coming forward from the Church Street bombing. So that perspective which contributes to a wider picture, but I think that today we have also, perhaps, had an opportunity to focus on another aspect of the work of the Truth Commission which we talk about a lot in theory, but I think today we actually saw a lot of that in practice from the testimony of the witnesses and some of the things that they were saying, the views that they were expressing and that is around the whole question of reconciliation. I think it was very moving to hear from people like Mr Clarence, in particular, that they have come to terms with these, with the events of the past, with the conflicts, that they can understand the conditions, the context in which these events took place. That they never ever want to forget which is certainly not what we in the Commission are proposing, but that they can understand and maybe even forgive if they can know more about the circumstances. So I think that that aspect of the work of the Commission, the reconciliation aspect was highlighted today and I think that from the testimony of the witnesses, it was clear that they are not necessarily out for vengeance or for punishment or victimisation. So we want to, again, express our appreciation to all the witnesses who came forward and people who spoke on things which were very painful and painful reminders for us as well, I suppose, of the past PRETORIA HEARING TRC/GAUTENG 8 C Q KENNY that we have just come through. I thank the audience again and those who came to show support, family and hope that as many of you will come again tomorrow and on Thursday when we have the final day of the hearings for now in Pretoria. So thanks once again. Go well. The Archbishop will be here tomorrow and will be chairing the session so we look forward to welcoming him as well. Thank you. PRETORIA HEARING TRC/GAUTENG