hrvtrans 1 E LEDWABA, HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATIONS, SUBMISSIONS QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS 1996-08-14 PRETORIA 3 ELIZABETH LEDWABA JB01020 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=55796&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/hrvtrans/pretoria/ledwaba.htm CHAIRPERSON Before I hand over to Dr Boraine, we would like to welcome Nico Smit who has been living in Mamelodi and we thank you for your Ministry and witness. Stand so that we can give you a small clap. DR BORAINE The next witness is Mrs Elizabeth Ledwaba and I would ask her to please come forward. Mrs Ledwaba, can you hear me on the earphones alright? Let me repeat that. Can you hear my voice and the voice of the interpreter. Just help her. Take your time. There is no hurry. I just want to make absolutely sure you can hear me. Alright, let us try again now. Can you hear my voice? Let me try it again. Can you hear my voice on the earphone? Alright, let me try again now. Can you hear my voice at all. MRS LEDWABA Yes. DR BORAINE You can. There we go. Alright, Mrs Ledwaba, I apologise, I am sorry that you had so much difficulty in trying to hear. We are very pleased to welcome you here today. You are almost the last person. You would have been the last person, but there is someone who was here yesterday so we will hear that person as well, but thank you for waiting for so long. You have a terrible story to tell. A very sad and awful one, but before you do that would you please stand to take the oath. ELIZABETH LEDWABA (Duly sworn in, states). PRETORIA HEARING TRC/GAUTENG 2 E LEDWABA DR BORAINE Thank you very much indeed. My colleague, Mr Russell Ally is going to lead you as you tell your story about the killing and the bombings in 1986. I hand over to him now. DR ALLY Welcome to you Mama. You can hear me? MRS LEDWABA Yes, I can hear you. DR ALLY Who is sitting next to you? Is that a family member sitting next to you? MRS LEDWABA This is Julian and he is my son. DR ALLY Welcome to him as well. MRS LEDWABA This is my son whom the bomb was thrown into his window. DR ALLY You are going to speak about Walter. So I would ask you now if you can please tell us your story. Thank you. MRS LEDWABA Which year was it again? Which year was it again? It was in 1986 at about two o' clock and a bomb was thrown through the bedroom window in which this boy was sleeping in. That bomb made a funny sound before it exploded and then I went to the kitchen door and opened it. This thing started making a funny sound and exploded. That is the bomb that they threw in through the bedroom window he was sleeping in. He woke up and he ran into the dining room. That is where I woke up and tried to go to his bedroom. The other boys, that is Walter and Oupa, were sleeping in the dining room. This one woke up and he ran to the dining room. When the other two woke up who were sleeping under the table in the dining room instead of running to the other side they went to the bedroom where the bomb was and these nails struck Walter and Oupa. It was about two o' clock in PRETORIA HEARING TRC/GAUTENG 3 E LEDWABA the morning. The doors went flying and the roof also went flying because of the bullets that were being shot. There was a bit of dust in the house and we were worried what was happening. When I opened the doors there were many soldiers outside. There were so many of them in my yard and they said to me, where are your children lady. I said which children of mine. I said the children of yours who are having a bomb in the house and I said to them how can they sleep with a bomb whilst I am with them in the house. I had not seen that bomb. How can that happen and they said, yes, these children of yours are having a bomb in their possession. There were many soldiers, that is white soldiers, there were no black soldiers at that time. This boys room burned and we tried to fetch water and pour it over the wardrobe so that we can extinguish the fire. We could not see each other in the house because there was a bit of dust in the house because my husband was deaf he woke up later whilst the soldiers were already full in the house. When the neighbours tried to come in they refused them entry and they had parked their Hippos at the corner of the street so that no one could see them. They took these children and they claimed that they had to go to the hospital. When my son tried to take my children to the hospital the police, the soldiers refused and they said they are waiting for a police ambulance or a Hippo. We waited from two o' clock and they came at six o' clock to pick up the children. The window glasses was scattered all around the house. When they come to pick up Walter with the Hippo at about six o' clock Walter died when he reached the hospital and this one I am remaining with is Oupa. He has an injured PRETORIA HEARING TRC/GAUTENG 4 E LEDWABA leg, he has a zinc in his leg and his other arm is not functioning well also. That is all I can say because I am being hurt by this when I am speaking at the moment. DR ALLY I am just going to ask you a few questions just to help us with our work. You say that there were many other bomb attacks in others houses, in other streets that time in Atteridgeville. Can you just tell us, if you can, a little bit about what was happening in Atteridgeville at that time with police action against Comrades or against the youth? Could you just tell us a little about that? MRS LEDWABA When people had gone to funerals there were many Hippos. People were not even able to eat after the funerals because the police and the soldiers were shooting teargas. I buried my son with the help of the Church congregation. When we left for the cemetery the Hippos were also accompanying us, but we were able to bury the child. They did not disturb us during the funeral. Now we thank this organisation that is affording us this opportunity to tell our story. DR ALLY Walter, he was your grandson. Is that correct? MRS LEDWABA Yes, was. DR ALLY And how old was he? MRS LEDWABA I was staying with both of them. DR ALLY And how old was Walter when he died? MRS LEDWABA I think he was about 17 years old. DR ALLY And is Julian the same, is Julian also Oupa because in your statement you say Julian and Walter were injured. Is Julian and Oupa the same person? MRS LEDWABA Yes, Oupa is also Julian. DR ALLY He is the one who was injured and he is still injured today. PRETORIA HEARING TRC/GAUTENG 5 E LEDWABA MRS LEDWABA Yes, it is so. DR ALLY And Walter did not die straight away. You said that you tried to take him to the hospital, but the soldiers did not want you to take him. MRS LEDWABA When the Hippo came to take us to the hospital at six o' clock, he did not even reach the hospital ward and he died because they had made him stay almost all night refusing us the opportunity to take him to the hospital by car. He was rolling on all the window glasses that had broken by that time. There were so many soldiers in the yard and they refused us the permission to take him to the hospital. That is from two o' clock up until six o' clock. When this Hippo came these bullets from the bomb had pierced his stomach. DR ALLY Did they give you any reasons for you not taking him to the hospital? Why did they not want you to take him to the hospital? MRS LEDWABA No, they said we were not supposed to take him to the hospital on our own. They were waiting for a Hippo to take him to the hospital and we said to them, these children have been injured since two o' clock, do they have to wait for the Hippo to come and fetch them. Then they said to me the Hippo will arrive in a short while and this Hippo arrived at about six o' clock and it was already a long time since these young boys had been rolling all over these glass windows. DR ALLY Was there ever a police investigation or any investigation into the bombing of your house? MRS LEDWABA No, nothing at all. DR ALLY And you still have not been given a death certificate of Walter because in your statement you say PRETORIA HEARING TRC/GAUTENG 6 E LEDWABA there was no death certificate. Is that still the situation now? MRS LEDWABA No, they did not give me a death certificate. I do not have it in my possession. DR ALLY And after this event did you have anymore trouble with the police? Did they still harass you and come to the house? What happened after Walter's death? MRS LEDWABA Yes, they still come to my house. They are looking for the uncle to these young boys and they ended up killing his uncle and since then the police have not visited me anymore. DR ALLY Sorry, can you say, they killed his uncle. MRS LEDWABA Yes, they also killed his uncle. DR ALLY Walter's uncle. How did he die? MRS LEDWABA Yes, it is Walter's uncle and he was killed by the police. Maybe he was on his way to Johannesburg, I think, going to the offices of a certain organisation and they shot him on his way to Johannesburg. DR ALLY Thank you very much Mama. CHAIRPERSON Any further questions? Tom Manthata. MR MANTHATA Mrs Ledwaba, this story you are telling us is almost similar to the one of Oupa Masuku that we heard on Monday. Did you know Oupa or was Oupa known to your children? MRS LEDWABA Who do you mean? MR MANTHATA I mean Oupa Masuku. MRS LEDWABA Yes, he knew Skwitch. Oupa Masuku, yes, he knew Skwitch. MR MANTHATA I thank you. MRS LEDWABA And I was telling him on Sunday that you Masuku you no more come to visit me and comfort me and check PRETORIA HEARING TRC/GAUTENG 7 E LEDWABA on how I am living and he said he was not available, he had gone overseas by then. CHAIRPERSON Mam, what can one say. We have no words to comfort you because whilst you are speaking, you are speaking about one grandson. There are two children of yours who have been killed. MRS LEDWABA They are all three including their uncle. They did not put their uncle's name in the statement. CHAIRPERSON What I am saying is maybe you are feeling very weak. MRS LEDWABA Yes, I am losing hope. CHAIRPERSON You do not even know what to say about what we are saying to you, trying to comfort you, but all the same we have a very true court, the court who can speak, the court who is not blind. Even though we had problems we use to say to our people God can see what has happened to you, He can hear what is happening to you. One day He as He did to the Israelites or to the children of Israel, he would come and lead us and release us and give us freedom. It looked as if we were dreaming by that time and what we were saying was not true and we also said let us all know that we are not going to easily get what we need. We are going to have to go through many troubles before most people are going to be sent to prisons, many are going to be killed and it is a very hurting thing to have two young people dying from your family and remaining with a cripple. We all say to you we have God who takes care of everyone and He is the one who can heal us. He is the very same one we are asking today to smooth your wounds. I thank you. I wish that He could be the one who would heal you, take care of your wounds with his Holy bandage. We thank you. We say you PRETORIA HEARING TRC/GAUTENG 8 E LEDWABA bore us heroes because today we are being looked at as people and we are proud of ourselves. We thank you. PRETORIA HEARING TRC/GAUTENG