hrvtrans 1 M M NDEBELE, HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATIONS, SUBMISSIONS QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS 1996-08-12 PRETORIA 1 MARTHA MASHASHANE NDEBELE JB01009 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=55817&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/hrvtrans/pretoria/ndebele.htm CHAIRPERSON Can you hear the translation and make sure that it is on the right channel there. I think it should be on channel three. If you can just check, if the translator can please communicate and see that she gets the right channel there. Apologies again, will be attended to immediately. Thank you very much. If you can hand it over. Mrs Ndebele, just before you give your evidence, will you please stand and raise your right hand. MARTHA MASHASHANE NDEBELE (Duly sworn in, states). CHAIRPERSON Thank you very much. You may take your seat. Mr Tom Manthata will assist you in giving your testimony to the Commission. MRS NDEBELE In 1982 ... MR MANTHATA Sorry, you have already started then you can continue. MRS NDEBELE In 1982 the police use to come to my house threatening my younger boy until I asked the relatives to take care of him. They use to come day and night looking for him and I asked them where are they taking him to and they told me he is attending COSAS meetings. In 1982 I use to work night shifts. In the morning when I came back I asked his brother Lucky and he told me that Lucky went to Johannesburg to a meeting and we were surprised that they did not come back. While we were sitting the police use to PRETORIA HEARING TRC/GAUTENG 2 M M NDEBELE come and ask him for Lucky and they said I must tell them the truth and tell them where my son was. I told them that I was also looking for my son and I did not know where he was. After a while in 1986 I received a telegram from Lusaka. Alfred Nzo had signed the telegram telling me that Lucky died in a car accident. We were very shocked by that and there was another boy who was from COSAS. He took the telegram with me to town. I do not remember the place. They took me to that office. When we arrived there and they told us that they will investigate about his death and told me to go home. I went home and Solomon Ngwashini took the telegram the next day and he said he was taking it to Priscilla Jana in Johannesburg so that she can investigate. I waited for him. When he came back I asked how it went and he told me that they said they will investigate further. I waited until the other guys who went into exile, Stanley and Elias, came back. I asked why are they back safe and they told me that Lucky died in exile. When I asked them what killed him they told me that it was a hand grenade, but I was surprised that the telegram told me that he died because of the accident. Those guys told me that they were together with him when he died and they said he was an instructor and he was killed by a hand grenade and he was buried there. I now ask the Truth Commission to help me at least find the remains of Lucky, my son, so that I can bury him. Now I cannot see, I am blind. MR MANTHATA When the telegram came to you, was it from the ANC? MRS NDEBELE The telegram, when we opened it, it was PRETORIA HEARING TRC/GAUTENG 3 M M NDEBELE addressed from Lusaka, from the ANC offices in Lusaka and Alfred Nzo had signed it. They told me that it was, he got the car accident, but the guys who came back from exile, who went there with him, they told me that it was a bomb, not the car accident. MR MANTHATA Did they tell you that it was a hand grenade? Did they tell you that he was a trainer? MRS NDEBELE Yes, they did. MR MANTHATA Was the telegram telling you that your son has passed away, you must come to the funeral? MRS NDEBELE No, they did not ask me to come. They were just informing me that my son was, had died, but when we went to ANC offices in town they told me that I could not to go into exile because it was during the apartheid era. MR MANTHATA Since when did you have the eye problem? MRS NDEBELE I now have three months. I spent a month at the hospital and my other eye cannot see. MR MANTHATA Were you just sick? MRS NDEBELE Yes, I was just disturbed and my eye started to ache and they operated on me at the hospital and after that I could not see. MR MANTHATA Were you worries because of the disappearance of Lucky or you had other problems? MRS NDEBELE No, it was because of Lucky. When I always thought of him, he was doing standard ten when he left so I was worried about that. MR MANTHATA Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Any questions? Mrs Sooka. MS SOOKA Martha, can you tell us at any time, did anybody from the ANC come to tell you officially what had happened to your son in Angola? PRETORIA HEARING TRC/GAUTENG 4 M M NDEBELE MRS NDEBELE After I received the telegram people came from the ANC at Shell House. They said to me that Lucky has passed away. Then they said they will come to visit me, but up till now no one has shown up at my place. MS SOOKA Who told you then that it was a bomb, a hand grenade that had killed your son? MRS NDEBELE Elias Mokgatha did inform me about that and Stanley Nkosi did inform me about that. MS SOOKA You also mention in your statement that Ronnie Mamoepa also came to see you. Is that correct? MRS NDEBELE Yes, it is correct. MS SOOKA What did he tell you? MRS NDEBELE Ronnie Mamoepa came to ask me since we hear that Lucky passed away, we will come and pay a visit. We are still doing investigations. MS SOOKA Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Dr Ally. Mrs Ndebele, I see you say that Ronnie Mamoepa when he came to you, also gave the explanation that your son had been killed by a bomb or a hand grenade and that your son had the alias of Patrick Mkhwanazi. Is that correct? MRS NDEBELE Yes, that is correct. CHAIRPERSON This happened in 1986 whereas the disappearance happened in February 1982, sorry 1986. So he had been away for four years already. MRS NDEBELE 1982. CHAIRPERSON Did you ever hear from him in the four years? MRS NDEBELE There is nothing that I heard from him. It was only the telegram that informed me that he has passed away. CHAIRPERSON Do you still have the telegram that you got PRETORIA HEARING TRC/GAUTENG 5 M M NDEBELE from Mr Nzo? MRS NDEBELE The telegram was taken by Mr Solomon Ngwashini taking it to Priscilla Jana. He never brought it back. CHAIRPERSON Did Mrs Priscilla Jana do a case on your behalf? Did she approach the court or did she do anything for you? MRS NDEBELE I do not know the person, but according to Solomon's explanation, he said that is our lawyer for the COSAS students and then that is how it came that Solomon took the telegram to Priscilla Jana. CHAIRPERSON Okay. Mrs Ndebele, we will certainly further look into this matter. We have already forwarded the statement that you have given us to the ANC offices to see if they could shed further light on the matter for us. If you could ask Solomon to see if he could get that telegram from Mrs Priscilla Jana we will also appreciate it and your request to identify your son's grave and to follow through on that. To see whether he could be brought back, that will also be referred to the necessary channels. We will in due course be communicating with you again. It will not be too soon. We have a lot of work, but we have some time and we will be working also on the information that you have given us. Thank you very much that you have come to us and we wish you well. PRETORIA HEARING TRC/GAUTENG