hrvtrans HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATIONS, SUBMISSIONS QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS 1996-07-24 QUEENSTOWN 3 TOTOLO DECEMBER QUEENSTOWN https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=55833&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/hrvtrans/qtown/december.htm TOTOLO DECEMBER: (sworn states) REVD FINCA Denzil Potgieter is going to rise questions. Put on your earphones. ADV POTGIETER Thank you Chairperson. Good morning Mr December. Can you hear me over the headphones? Your story concerns another senseless loss of a young life. It concerns the killing of your son on the 11th of September 1980 in Sada after he was shot by the police. Would you like to tell us what happened please. T DECEMBER It is like that. In 1980 in September there was, there were boys from the secondary school Emhlotshana, they were students there and a certain teacher there asked them to collect money in preparation for a journey. Well, after they had collected this money it happened that they did not undertake that journey and time went on and when they saw that they were not going for the journey, they went to the teacher to demand for their money. And it was then that there was a clash between the boys and the teacher and the teacher decided to phone the policemen in the Ciskei. So the policemen came and they had shambocks with them and the school boys ran away. They went to all the neighbouring schools. So they came to the school where my son was schooling and they asked them to go out of the class rooms. And the QUEENSTOWN HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE 2 T DECEMBER boys went up a hill, they were in the company of some girls and Sipho December, my son, also went up the hill. The name of the hill is Emhlotshana and when they were there, they gathered together and they were intending to hold a meeting up there in the mountain. And the matter to be discussed was the money that they had given to the teacher and go and tell the authorities that they were not getting the money from the teacher. Whilst they were still there, the policemen from the Republic came, driving in land rovers, there were about three land rovers. They drove up this hill a little and there was a wind coming from the other side and the policemen threw tear gas at them, at the children. Then they started as a result of the tear gas and some of them climbed further, then I don't know whether that is when they got hold of my son. Those who were arrested were beaten up irrespective of whether they were boys or girls, so my son was taken into the police van by the Ciskei police and they took him to Frontier Hospital on the 11th day. Then on the 12th, and I was at work, the policeman came to my house to explain that Sipho December had died. I was at work then they called me back from work, so I got the news that Sipho was dead. At that time, I can't tell who took him to Russel's, whether it was the policeman or it was Russel himself. Then a messenger from the court came with a letter that we may not bury on a weekend, but we were to bury on a week day. So we did exactly that, we buried him on a Wednesday. So there was nothing we could do, we did not investigate as to how he got hurt, because at that time, we were not QUEENSTOWN HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE 3 T DECEMBER allowed even to say anything against the Government of the Ciskei. So we buried my son and it was just that. That is all. ADV POTGIETER Thank you Mr December. I just want to ask you one or two further questions. The cause of the death of your son, was he shot by the police or was he assaulted? T DECEMBER Sir, according to what I know he was beaten up by the police, because he had a wound, a deep wound here at the back of his head and even the body was swollen. ADV POTGIETER How old was he when he died? T DECEMBER He was 18 years old at the time. ADV POTGIETER And was he attending school, and if so, what standard was he doing? T DECEMBER Yes, he was a student, he was in standard 7. ADV POTGIETER Was there any case about his death at the court, did they ever ask you to come to court in connection with his death? T DECEMBER No, there wasn't. We never made any appearance to any court, we were never called to appear to court, it was all quiet. ADV POTGIETER And did you ever speak to any lawyers about the case? T DECEMBER No, I never even attempted to go to the lawyers, because at that time people were not even allowed to take any steps of that nature, otherwise you would be the next. You would not be allowed even to investigate about what had happened to you. ADV POTGIETER Why was that Mr December? Was it, who adopted that attitude that you can't ask any questions or investigate anything? QUEENSTOWN HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE 4 T DECEMBER T DECEMBER It was the Government. ADV POTGIETER How many other children do you have? T DECEMBER I have, the youngest because one of them is working already, then the next is sick, because he has got epileptic fits. The third, the brother is paying for his school fees in Bloemfontein. ADV POTGIETER Mr December, it is important I've got to ask you. How did the death of Sipho, how did the death of your son, affect the family, yourself and your wife, his mother and in fact the other children? T DECEMBER We were really affected by his death, such that the mother is not enjoying good health and we have always been taking her to a Doctor and she has been diagnosed as a diabetic. So I've been constantly taking her to visit Doctors. That's all. ADV POTGIETER Can I just take you back again to another issue that you have referred to. You said that it was the attitude of the Government that made people afraid to ask questions or to investigate matters. I assume that if you say the Government, are you referring to the Ciskei Government at that stage? T DECEMBER Yes, it was the Ciskei Government. ADV POTGIETER And at that stage, who was in charge of the Ciskei Government - do you still remember? T DECEMBER It was under Tsebe at the time. ADV POTGIETER And the Ciskei police, can you still recall who was in charge of the police at that time? T DECEMBER No, I can't remember who was the head of the police at that time. ADV POTGIETER It is not a problem, you've been very QUEENSTOWN HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE 5 T DECEMBER helpful. Can I just ask you in conclusion, Mr December, have you got any requests for the Commission? Is there anything that you would want us to look particularly at for you? T DECEMBER I would like to ask the Commission to sympathise with me and my family. I don't know - I'll just ask that they should do something for me, whatever otherwise I can't tell at the moment what I would like them to do for me. ADV POTGIETER That is also not a problem. You can always come back to that issue. I want to thank you for your story and thank you for the information that you've given to us. And I am now going to hand you back to the Chairperson. REVD FINCA Thank you Denzil. Revd Xundu. REVD XUNDU Thank you Chairperson. I would like to find out from you who was this school principal? The principal who collected the money from the children? T DECEMBER There was a boy there who gave his evidence that this teacher, he could give some evidence about this teacher and he said he could be here today because he was there at the time, but I don't see him at the moment. REVD XUNDU Do you know the name of the Magistrate who sent out restrictions about funeral proceedings? T DECEMBER Yes, I know the one who brought the letter. His name was Mr Fuma, but unfortunately he died. REVD XUNDU Now how do you survive there at home? Do you live on a pension? T DECEMBER Yes, we live on a pension fund. I also take some part-time jobs with the Government and my wife lives on pension and even the pension for that one who is epileptic. REVD FINCA Mr December, we thank you. I don't know QUEENSTOWN HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE 6 whether you can hear me, because I see you're facing the other way. We thank you sir for your story which reminded us of those trying times in the Ciskei under the Regime of the late L.L.Sebe whom they used to address as (indistinct), who was with his brother Charles Sebe, who also died in a very painful way.