hrvtrans HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATIONS, SUBMISSIONS QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS 1996-08-07 SEBOKENG STEFANE MESHACK NTSEORENG 1046 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=55867&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/hrvtrans/sebokeng/seb1046.htm DR BORAINE: Good morning Mr Ntsoereng and also to your daughter we are very glad that you have somebody from your own family who is with you and I hope that you are going to feel relaxed. It's not easy to sit where you are. You are the first today and that's even more difficult because the day is still young and it hasn't really started, but you will start by telling your own story. I want you to know that this is not a court of law. We are not here to interrogate you. We want to help you to tell your story. Now I'd like you to start with the 3rd of September 1984 where there was a meeting at the administration offices to talk about electricity and then to take us through your story and I will try not to interrupt unless there is some question that I might want to ask. Will you start now please. MR NTSOERENG: There was a meeting, the meeting was with regard to electricity. It was three weeks before the 3rd of September. The meeting was held at Zone 13. As the residents of Zone 13 we were actually their representatives and Zone 13 was behind with their payments and it was the first one to pay R8,50 when other locations were still paying a relatively low fee. When we got to the Council they explained to us that it was difficult for Zone 13 to obtain electricity if they did not increase the money that we had to pay and we were behind in arrears. The residents accepted this explanation. At this meeting it was myself, HRV/1046 Mrs Musala/... 2 Mrs Musala as well as Mrs Dhlamini when we explained to the residents and the residents accepted the explanation. Can I go on? DR BORAINE: Yes please do go on. MR NTSOERENG: When the residents accepted this that was on the first day, it was on a Saturday, people from the administration offices in Sebokeng came with a fire extinguisher. When they brought this fire extinguisher it was a very surprising story, though I had already heard that there was going to be a rent boycott, now I wondered as to what was the fire extinguisher going to do. It so happened that on that day, from that day up to Monday it was the third day, but it was on a Monday at about 9 o'clock there was some violence within the community. After that violence had started I realised that there could be some problems arising because the shops were burnt. That is when I decided to move away from my place and I went to my brother's place. This went on and on up till the afternoon. At that point when I was listening to the radio I realised that some of my members had already died on that very same day, and we realised that the situation was quite volatile and I could not go out of the residence. Up till sunset even the following day then on a Wednesday it was between 5 o'clock and 7 o'clock my house was burnt down. As my house was burning I really discovered that it was now quite bad but I slept there and friends who were with me at that day tried to help me get out of that place and they tried to help me as I am a widower. They took me from there and they took me to the Administration Board at Houtkop. I related this matter to the police and asked them to go and fetch my sons who were left there as well as their sister. When I HRV/1046 got/... 3 got there the policeman went to fetch my sons and they brought them to Houtkop. I will try to explain this a little bit further. As I'd already explained that we were sent a certain matter and there was a fire extinguisher my co-members they were not only fire extinguishers but they also got guns. I'll just explain it a little bit further so that it may be clear that we were a different organisation. There was a Mathlasedi organisation. There was also an LPP as well as Bafutsane. I was a member of Bafutsane organisation. This really surprised me to get that some others were armed and we were not armed. Probably they knew what was going to happen thereafter. We remained there. As we were still there we had to hold certain meetings to try and get some solutions and resolutions to the situation. As we were still furthering this matter there was another aspect that was troubling us within the community. That was the issue of the liquor outlets. We, as the people that we could be able to go on as a community and develop ourselves. I hope it is clear that at that time the liquor licences cost a lot of money to obtain because the bottle stores outside were not allowed to bring liquor into our location, and we realised that that was the only thing that could help us out of this predicament. As we were taking this matter further we realised that we could not see eye- to-eye with the administration board because the administration board and the council was already there at that time. They told us that it was a matter for the administration board and they wanted to privatise the liquor boards. It is true that was the end of the matter, and these were separated in a surprising matter because most of HRV/1046 them/... 4 them, that is the greater part went to the other people. That is another matter that troubled the community. We stayed as the situation went on. Now as we went to the meetings we kept on having those meetings and we started having altercations and we were not seeing eye-to-eye with the other organisations that I have already explained, and they started moving out of the organisations and crossing floors to other organisations. Some of them were being helped by the administration board. And it so happened that as time went on we discovered that as we were staying at DC Group we had to move away because we did not have houses anymore. And at the time when we decided to move we had to get another place to stay where we were going to build and we got the space at Zone 10. I can still point it now. We discovered that we did not have anything, any possessions, because all our possessions had been burnt when our houses were burned, and it so happened that at that juncture I can say that most of the people who were there got money which could be to the amount of R5 000 in order to start our living. I, and Mr Musala was one of the people who did not get any money. It happened that at that particular time I saw another fire extinguisher and it is still there at my place. It happened that those houses were rebuilt and when these houses were built there had to be a division and I got a unit next to the hostel. All the other ones from the other opposing group had to go to other houses at Zone 10. They went to stay there and this place was surrounded by a fence. There were certain policemen who were guarding that place 24 hours of the day. I was given the third fire HRV/1046 extinguisher/... 5 extinguisher. When I got out the fire extinguisher was there, there was no fence, nothing. And when I enquired about this issue I was told that the person who was issuing the R5 000 rent money was the Commissioner. When I went to see him at his offices he said I should wait for the State President's Fund, there is no money that I will ever get. It so happened that the next year if I am not mistaken, it was in June, the State President's Fund arrived. I wasn't living peacefully and I decided to go and rebuild my house in the township. It happened that thereafter the houses that belonged to the councillors, the houses that were in the townships were now fenced. Now at the hostel unit where I was staying there was nothing. I nearly forgot that my friend Mr Musala who was with me in this trouble decided to leave Vaal Triangle to go to Pretoria. It happened then that when they were busy fencing the houses the then town secretary Mr Scholtz he was involved in this scandal, he was taking money for himself and there was a court case and he was sentenced. If I remember well he also made an appeal, I don't know whether he succeeded with the appeal or not. This is the trouble that I have been through. All this started in 1984 until in 1987 because you will understand that I was between two trouble areas. In the township I was being chased by the people and on this other side I was also being chased away. There were bursaries afforded children, but my children couldn't get even a cent from those bursaries. I want to say to you today my community harassed me because we negotiated with them at first before I could get into the council and the administration and the council HRV/1046 itself/... 6 itself was harassing me. Now you have to understand, a father who has got children, what kind of life was a man supposed to live in those years. DR BORAINE: Thank you Mr Ntsoereng. You have described very clearly what it was like in that period 1984 and onwards. Now you mention that you were a councillor but your weren't a member of the LPP, you weren't a member of the ruling party? MR NTSOERENG: I wasn't in the ruling party Sir, I was in the Bafutsane Party. DR BORAINE: And that was an opposition party? MR NTSOERENG: Yes it was the opposition party. DR BORAINE: But the community were opposed to councillors whether they were in the ruling party or in the opposition party, is that right? Shall I repeat? MR NTSOERENG: Yes you can repeat that Sir. DR BORAINE: I was saying the community were they opposed to the ruling party and to the opposition party? MR NTSOERENG: I didn't know of any opposition from the community because I've already explained that we had regions. Now in the region where I was the same region paid my fees to register because we were paying R250,00 as registration. DR BORAINE: Could I ask you then why do you think your house was burnt down? MR NTSOERENG: I think I have explained that on the 3rd people were killed and on the 4th, on the 5th my house was then burned, and I realised that the community was now angry and they decided to do the same thing even if they chose me. DR BORAINE: So there was a very big argument about who should represent the community and who shouldn't. Now you HRV/1046 mentioned/... 7 mentioned that some of the councillors, probably only from the ruling party were given R5 000. MR NTSOERENG: Yes I have already explained that Sir. DR BORAINE: But you weren't given that because you were not the ruling party? MR NTSOERENG: The people who did not receive the money was myself and Mr Musala, we were the leaders of the other two organisations. DR BORAINE: Now you mentioned that the State President Fund in 1985 paid out some of the councillors for the loss of their houses, were you paid as well? MR NTSOERENG: The State President's Fund paid everybody because a cheque was directed to a specific person. That is the money that I have already explained that I used it to rebuild my house, that was then destroyed again. DR BORAINE: How much was that? MR NTSOERENG: It was R16 000. That is why I managed to rebuild my house. Sir I will explain that it was my house that I built myself, it wasn't the Municipal house. DR BORAINE: But then you mentioned very briefly that your house was destroyed again in about 1989 or 1990, now why was that? MR NTSOERENG: Sir, I won't tell you, I don't know the reasons because I was not a councillor anymore, but as I was not feeling well I was not here in the Vaal Triangle. There were people staying in my house. DR BORAINE: Now the house that you are staying in now, is that another house that you had to build or rent? MR NTSOERENG: I had to go to the Unit, I went back to the Unit that I was given before. DR BORAINE: And are you employed or unemployed at the HRV/1046 moment?/... 8 moment? MR NTSOERENG: I am unemployed Sir. I am not working at this present moment. I am just selling oranges and fruits. DR BORAINE: Do any of your family live with you? MR NTSOERENG: Yes Sir, this is my daughter, one of them. DR BORAINE: You live together? MR NTSOERENG: Yes Sir. DR BORAINE: Do you receive any kind of pension at all? MR NTSOERENG: I am not yet at the right age to get a pension. I have a request Sir. DR BORAINE: Please go ahead. MR NTSOERENG: My request is that the files of the administration board have to be taken out and our council files have to be taken out as well so as to get the clear message that we are in this situation because of the administration board. You will realise that the money that the people were paying were only helping the south part of the Free State, with the money from the Vaal area. Wittsieshoek area was built through the monies paid by the people of this community. DR BORAINE: We have noted your request. Is there anything else that you want to say to the Commission? MR NTSOERENG: I don't have so many things to say Sir. That was the request. Now my other request is I am in this kind of situation what can the Commission offer me so that I can be accepted by the community? DR BORAINE: I think that one of the good and the positive things about these hearings is that it gives people an opportunity to tell their story and explain why they were doing one thing and not another, and hopefully that as one tells one's story so the community will begin to forgive and HRV/1046 to/... 9 to forget and to allow people to come back and to live normal lives. But that of course is up to you and the community, and certainly it would be a real request from the Commission that people start healing one another and receiving one another because those times in the eighties were times of war and we must now make peace. Thank you very much for coming. I am going to hand back to the Chairperson in case anyone else wants to ask you questions. CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Dr Boraine. MRS SEROKE: Mr Ntsoereng I just want to ask you to briefly explain to us why were the people boycotting rents? MR NTSOERENG: As I have already explained people boycotted the rent because of many reasons. You will understand that in the year that we were placed in power it was the same year of the Tricameral Parliament and the Black community was not happy at all about that Tricameral Parliament, that was the first reason. The second reason I can say the privatisation of liquor outlets was another issue that dissatisfied the community. The third thing we have to remember that when Sebokeng was formed Sebokeng was really expensive. I still remember people were paying R8,50 rents and Sharpeville was only paying R3,50 a month, and Sharpeville was using the bucket system at that time. They didn't have a sewerage system. Now it so happened that when the townships were put together people in Sebokeng they discovered that Sharpeville was actually developed through their expense and they were not satisfied. And I have to say, we have to remember that even before our council came to power there was a community council and this council increased the rents two or three times a year, and they said after a few months we will add HRV/1046 a/... 10 a certain amount and after so many months we will add another amount and people were not satisfied at all. I think those are the reasons why the people were not satisfied. MS SEROKE: Now as a member of Bafutsane were you fighting for such things? MR NTSOERENG: Remember I was from Zone 13 which was the first zone with no electricity. It suffered a lot. We must remember the administration board also started in Zone 13, they were staying in those houses. Now the development of Sebokeng comes from the area called Zone 13. That was the area paying the highest rents. All the zones are coming from this other zone. That is why I emphasise that investigations should be made as to what happened to the monies, as to what happened to the money because we were made to understand that Sharpeville was helped actually by the monies from Sebokeng. We have to understand how the (...indistinct) developed through our monies. MS SEROKE: I thank you Sir. CHAIRPERSON: Dr Randera has a few questions. DR RANDERA: Mr Ntsoereng I just want to understand that period a little better, what were you doing before you became a councillor? MR NTSOERENG: I was a salesman. DR RANDERA: And you said earlier on when you were speaking to Dr Boraine you said "my community harassed me but we asked for their permission before we became councillors", can you just tell us a little more what you mean by that? MR NTSOERENG: When I say the community harassed me, my house was burnt and I had to leave the township, and that is the same community that trusted me at that time. HRV/1046 DR RANDERA/... 11 DR RANDERA: I know it's a long time ago, can you please just tell us there were, I understand there were some elections for these local councils how many people actually voted for those councils, what percentage of the population in your opinion? MR NTSOERENG: I can't remember the percentages but what I can remember is the fact that in our region we had a LPP member and I had 1,400 votes and he only had 600 votes. I am talking about the region here, not about the Vaal Triangle in general. DR RANDERA: I just want to come back to where you started your statement, I mean maybe the dates are right, maybe the dates are wrong, you say on the 3rd of September you had a meeting in Zone 13 with, or three weeks, sorry my apologies, three weeks prior to the 3rd of September you had a meeting with the people of Zone 13 ...(intervention) MR NTSOERENG: That's correct. DR RANDERA: It sounded like it was quite a reasonable meeting and then three weeks later you say on the 3rd of September I heard over the radio that some of our councillors have been killed. MR NTSOERENG: Yes. DR RANDERA: What happened in this period? On the one side you seem to have had quite a reasonable discussion with the people of Zone 13 and three weeks later it seemed like the township was burning, what happened inbetween? Who was responsible? Who were the other organisations that were working in the area? MR NTSOERENG: Which area are you referring to Sir? DR RANDERA: I am talking about your area, Sebokeng. MR NTSOERENG: I want to point out that there were many HRV/1046 organisations/... 12 organisations. UDF was present and they also held their meetings and we used to hold our meetings as well. Now the meeting we held three weeks before we were about to report to the community that we will not meet their demands if they don't agree to the fact that the rent has to be increased by R5,00. In that same meeting, it was a great meeting, a big meeting because we had the drum majorette, there was a beautiful day, we were explaining to the community this issue of increment. DR RANDERA: Mr Ntsoereng I just want to come back to this issuing of guns to the councillors, who gave out the guns? Was it the administration or the police who gave out the guns and were people trained to use those guns? MR NTSOERENG: I want to talk about the training, I don't know whether they were trained to use the guns, but what I can explain is that those guns were the adminstration bought guns. That is the fact I know. DR RANDERA: My last question Mr Ntsoereng. You say in your statement, "These people who destroyed my house they also destroyed me morally. I put the blame to the regime, that is apartheid". Now I want you please to just tell us what you mean by that, but also in doing so can you please tell us in your memory how many councillors actually lost their lives during this period? MR NTSOERENG: Nobody in those years wanted oppression. Myself as a councillor I didn't like oppression but the regime put us in trouble. I have already explained that investigations should be conducted because the Black people were used by the Government. The community of the Vaal HRV/1046 Triangle/... 13 Triangle was living on conditions of bridging finance. They used to meet their target and they could also meet their target at Wittsieshoek. I have already indicated that the irrigation system in that area was supported through the funds of our region. And the community lost temper and patience. That is why I say the regime is responsible. I know the deceased Mr Kuzwayo Dhlamini who was killed. Mr Siza Mucheane. Jacob Chakane and two months thereafter Zipo Dhlamini was killed in Everton. DR RANDERA: So that is four people that you know who were killed during that time who were councillors. MR NTSOERENG: But the people who died in that violent era were many, not only the councillors, but many people died. DR RANDERA: Thank you very much. CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ntsoereng on behalf of the TRC I would like to thank you so much that you came. Thank you that you brought your daughter with you today and introduced her to us. We really want to say to you that the Truth Commission has many tasks. One of the tasks is to try and find out the truth of what's happened in South Africa and the information you gave us will help us piece together the true story of everything that happened in the Vaal Triangle in those difficult years. Thank you for helping us with that. And we also want to say to you that we do have sympathy with you, with the dilemma you were in. You told us about the difficulty of being a councillor in those years, as you said you were chased by your own people, on the other hand you were harassed by the regime, by the administration and we know that the councillors also suffered and that their families suffered with them. Thank you that you told us that and we do hope that partly because of your story today HRV/1046 that/... 14 that you and your family and many other councillors and their families will be well accepted back into the community. And as for your request that there's investigation needed about the monies, the way the monies were used we will take that along and we'll present your request to the TRC. But thank you for coming, and thank you for bringing your daughter. You may leave and you may take your place again in the audience.