hrvtrans HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATIONS, SUBMISSIONS QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS 1996-11-27 TEMBISA JAMES MAKOLOTLA MADEBE https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=55959&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/hrvtrans/tembisa/madebe.htm ( No introduction, tape starts with questions) MS SEROKE And that's when you decided not to go to the police? MR MADEBE How can I report this to the police because they are the killers? How would I report this matter? MS SEROKE People who died in this shooting, what was done with their bodies? I don't know who took these dead bodies, maybe it is the policemen but we just saw that the bodies were taken away, had disappeared. MS SEROKE Do you know Lenon Nondlala at the hostel, wasn't he a resident there? MR MADEBE No I don't know him. We wouldn't know each other because we came from different places. MS SEROKE But most of you came from the rural areas? MR MADEBE Yes it is so. MS SEROKE Where were you injured, where in your body? MR MADEBE There was only one wound in my right arm. The bullet just went through. MS SEROKE Who shot you, a policeman or a black person who is not a policeman? MR MADEBE I can never say whether it was a black or a white man but we were just running away from these bullets, but unfortunately we were shot. MS SEROKE To which hospital did you go? MR MADEBE I stayed there of two months at the hospital. TEMBISA HEARING TRC/GAUTENG 2 MADEBE MS SEROKE Were you working at the time? MR MADEBE No I was not working at the time. I stopped working on the 7th of May. MS SEROKE After having sustained these injuries, when you met your friends, didn't they know what the reason was for this fight as you discussed it as friends? MR MADEBE I wouldn't know because it became very clear that it is Inkatha and the policemen and the soldiers that were killing the Xhosas. MS SEROKE Did the soldiers and the policemen come into the hostel with their vans? MR MADEBE They were rounding all over the place when these Zulus come and they would shoot anybody. MS SEROKE Those who sustained injuries, including yourselves, did you decide to go and get an attorney? MR MADEBE No we never did. Because we didn't know what to do, because we didn't even know where we'd be able to find a lawyer because the whole country was in that state. MS SEROKE Are you working at the moment. MR MADEBE No I'm not. MS SEROKE Since then? MR MADEBE Yes. MS SEROKE How do you survive? MR MADEBE I'm getting part time jobs. CHAIRPERSON We thank you very much Sir, I will ask my colleagues here to ask any questions, Yasmin Sooka? MS SOOKA Mr Makolotla, where did you come from before you lived in the hostel? MR MADEBE Are you talking about back home where I come from? MS SOOKA Yes please. TEMBISA HEARING TRC/GAUTENG 3 MADEBE MR MADEBE I come from Umtata. MS SOOKA How many years have you been living in Vusumuzi Hostel? MR MADEBE I think two to three years. MS SOOKA How many people were there from Umtata in this hostel? MR MADEBE There were many people but I wouldn't know because we were not staying in the same rooms but I didn't know how many people from Umtata exactly were there in the hostel. MS SOOKA Was there an equal amount of Xhosa speaking people and Zulu speaking people or was the one group bigger than the other? MR MADEBE I would not know, because you can never count people to say exactly how many but we were many people at that hostel. MS SOOKA More or less what was the number? MR MADEBE You can never know how many people stay in a hostel. MS SOOKA Where were you working at the time you were living in the hostel? MR MADEBE I was working in a Spartan. MS SOOKA Before this incident, had there been trouble between the Xhosas and Zulu speaking people in the hostel? MR MADEBE There was no problem between the two groups. We were united but we didn't know that they had such thoughts about us. These just erupted from nowhere. MS SOOKA Why do you think it just erupted like that? MR MADEBE That is what I don't know, I want to know till today. MS SOOKA After this incident when you had been shot and TEMBISA HEARING TRC/GAUTENG 4 MADEBE the other people killed that particular day, were there still Xhosa people living in that hostel, or were all of them now out of the hostel? MR MADEBE They started moving away the same day, the Xhosas because they were running away because they were being shot by these policemen assisting these Zulus. MS SOOKA The previous witness mentioned that her son has told her that the police were taking the arms away from the Xhosa speaking people but that they left the Zulu people with their weapons. Do you know anything about that? MR MADEBE I wouldn't know regarding that because I was never disarmed at any stage because I never had any arms, but I did see that the Xhosas were disarmed but not from the Zulus. MS SOOKA And was it your impression that the police were assisting the Zulu speaking people to shoot at the Xhosas or were they just standing by and not interfering in the matter at all? MR MADEBE They were not standing by and watching. They were killing, as we see, they were just killing. MS SOOKA Did they have their uniforms on? MR MADEBE Yes they had their uniforms on, the police. Those police, they were moving with their Caspers and vans. MS SOOKA What was the colour of the Casper? MR MADEBE Some are yellow, some are grey. And helicopters with police in them. MS SOOKA How long did this last, was it one day two days? MR MADEBE It went on for a long time. It started in 1990 up until 1991, the same thing carrying on, these people would come daily and kill people, they would kill different numbers, seven or two or one at a time, doing the same thing TEMBISA HEARING TRC/GAUTENG 5 MADEBE every day. They even came to the informal settlements and burned down shacks there as well. They shot even a small child of which I think is the previous witnesses child. Fur people died in the open field and one was an albino, killed by the same police on the same night. MS SOOKA On that day when you were injured, how many people had been killed? MR MADEBE On that day six people died and twelve were injured. MS SOOKA Did you report the matter to the police? MR MADEBE Report to the police? MS SOOKA Was there any enquiry after this? MR MADEBE There was no inquest about this. MS SOOKA And where did the people who lived in Vusumuzi Hostel go to then after this had happened? MR MADEBE Some were staying in the field and some were staying in the settlement called Nqlewini, which is shacks and some ran to Western Side. MS SOOKA At this point in time, is there still trouble between the people in the hostel and the other residents at Tembisa? MR MADEBE I didn't hear that clearly. MS SOOKA I was saying, today, now after the Elections, is there still trouble between the people of the hostel and the people in Tembisa? MR MADEBE At the moment there are no signs of violence. That was the last time. MS SOOKA And did any of the Xhosa speaking people move back into the hostel? MR MADEBE I would not know but I would never go back to that place. It is not a place where a man would go, but I TEMBISA HEARING TRC/GAUTENG 6 MADEBE would not go personally. MS SOOKA When you mentioned to the other Commissioner that at the time you were staying in the hostel, you were not a member of any political party but that now you are a member of the ANC. When did that happen? MR MADEBE I've just joined the ANC. MS SOOKA Thank you. CHAIRPERSON We thank you very much Sir. If I can just ask you one question, when you gave your statement, was there anything that you wish the Commission could do for you, can you tell us briefly if there is any? MR MADEBE I didn't have any expectations but it's just that my arm at the moment is not functioning properly. Sometimes it's numb. I cannot use my arm like before. Even now my arms are not equal in length. CHAIRPERSON We thank you very much Sir. Our procedure is that once we have heard the statement we hand it over to the Investigating Committee which we'll forward to the Reparations Committee which will put forward recommendations to President Mandela so as to see how victims can be assisted, we thank you very much. CHAIRPERSON Can you hear me Mr Getvese. MR GETVESE Yes I can hear you clearly. CHAIRPERSON I thank you very much Sir, we welcome you in front of this Commission and we see according to your statement that you are one of those who were victims between the factions of the ANC and the IFP in the hostels but before you can give your testimony I'd request you to stand up so that you can take the oath. DAVID DAYI GETVESE (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON As it is our tradition I will ask one of my TEMBISA HEARING TRC/GAUTENG 7 GETVESE Commissioners, Commissioner Sooka to assist you in giving your evidence. MS SOOKA Tata are you able to hear me properly? MR GETVESE Yes I can hear you. MS SOOKA Tata, before you start, tell us a little bit about yourself, where you live now and whether you remarried and have any more children? MR GETVESE I'm staying at Madelokufa. I am married, I have three children, two girls. MS SOOKA Do you want to tell us about what happened, there have been two things which have happened to you. The one when you were in the shebeen and the other time when your wife was killed. Do you want to tell us about that please? MR GETVESE Yes I can tell you everything. I was on my way from doing my part time jobs and I was staying at Vusumuzi. I was back from this part time job. It was late in the afternoon. I saw a lady was approaching our houses carrying clothes. As she was approaching these houses there were people who asked her, " Where are you from?" She said, "I come from Ciskei, I've come to visit my husband". And she was carrying a three year old baby on her back, the name of the child is Lubuyo. These people wanted to know if the child was a male or a female but they could see that it's a boy. They pulled this child by the foot and they hit the child against the wall and she cracked her skull, and when this woman tried to cry, they said rather they kill her. When I tried to come near, I saw many people coming down in a hurry and they were heavily armed, and I heard people saying that you should get away here because there is trouble. I saw that this woman was stabbed to death TEMBISA HEARING TRC/GAUTENG 8 GETVESE already and thereafter we ran to the opposite area in front of the school in the open field. Whilst we were standing there, this group was approaching, we stood there and we were looking at them and gunshots were fired by this group, but there were many gunshots and they had all sorts of arms. We ran further up across the field. At the end of that day, we were in another house there in the field that's called Mamabalane, the house number is 409. It was late, there they sell food and we were also drinking alcohol as well. That was just before 8 o'clock, we were confused because we didn't know where we were going to sleep that night. As we were sitting around and drinking, just before 8 o'clock we heard some gunshots, we were sitting in the kitchen and there were shots fired in the kitchen and in the dining room. And after those gunshots, the owner of that house, Mabalana fell. I found out that they hit him on his head and that he was dead. And one was shot in the knee. They were shooting from the dining room and the kitchen and I was shot also in my leg. The woman was in the room and I realised that this group was just shooting us because they heard us making noise. We don't know who called the ambulance or where it came from, but the three of us were just taken away by this ambulance, and another one was shot dead on that day as well. But the other two survived but unfortunately went home to Port Elizabeth. So I was the third one of the three. They were taken to hospital and when we got there I received some plaster of paris and the bullet just penetrated through the leg and that was the end. I tried to go to the police station. When I got there TEMBISA HEARING TRC/GAUTENG 9 GETVESE to see if this woman is not there at the police station, the policeman told me that they want nobody there, I must go back and there were still gunshots, and we went in a big number because there were many people who were injured on that day, but because I was injured I couldn't follow the matter up, only to find out that was the last time I saw my wife, she disappeared, as well as the child. MS SOOKA I know that it's a painful story but I do need to ask you some questions, just so that we can have a clear picture. Where did you yourself come from before you lived in the hostel? MR GETVESE I come from the Transkei in Willowvale. MS SOOKA An how long had you been living in the hostel? MR GETVESE Five years but I used to go home frequently. MS SOOKA Were you employed here in Tembisa or were you just working for yourself? MR GETVESE I was doing part time jobs and I would work during weekends as well. MS SOOKA And in your room were you staying just with Xhosa speaking people or were you mixed in the room? MR GETVESE We were a mixed group. MS SOOKA How many of you slept in one room? MR GETVESE Four sleep in a room. MS SOOKA Was your wife able to visit you often or was this not happening? MR GETVESE It was her first visit, she did not even know the place but unfortunately she came on this unfortunate day and I wasn't even expecting her. MS SOOKA You say that you had been doing part time work that morning and you were on your way back to the hostel? MR GETVESE Yes it is so but on that day I didn't find any TEMBISA HEARING TRC/GAUTENG 10 GETVESE piece job to do, therefore I gave up and went back to the hostel. MS SOOKA And if I heard you properly, you say you saw your wife in the distance, is that correct? Or were you told about what had happened? MR GETVESE I wasn't told, I saw everything myself. Because I was already there and those people didn't know me and didn't know that I was related to this woman, but when I tried to see if this is my wife, but before I could know there was a group of people approaching, heavily armed and there were gunshots. That's when I realised that this is no time to stand around and I heard people warning me that I must get away. That's when I decided to run away but I realised that there were a lot of people running away as well an I did not know that there was such a fight around there. MS SOOKA How far were you from this incident when it happened? MR GETVESE As far as that door but as I tried to come nearer to see what is happening, I could see that this is my wife carrying clothes but I saw that my child was lying on the floor. As I tried to come nearer, these people started chasing other people as well, that's when I got the chanc to run away as well. MS SOOKA And these people, did you know them at all? MR GETVESE No they are unknown to me, but they were wearing red handkerchiefs on their foreheads. MS SOOKA Do you think they lived in the hostel or did they come from somewhere else? MR GETVESE I think they were just passing by because I TEMBISA HEARING TRC/GAUTENG 11 GETVESE never saw any of the Zulus that stay in the residence amongst this crowd, so I think they were just passers by who killed my child and my wife. MS SOOKA Why do you think they killed them. I mean your wife was just visiting? Why do you think they reacted so violently against her? MR GETVESE I don't know why, but as I hear rumours they didn't want young boys, they didn't kill women, they killed men only, they killed my wife because she was carrying a boy, so they were killing males, not females. MS SOOKA You also say in your statement that this shebeen where this Baba Mabelani was killed, that it was well known. MR GETVESE He was killed instantly. MS SOOKA And the people that killed him, was it also this group of men wearing these red cloths on their heads? MR GETVESE We cannot tell whether it was the same group because we were inside the house, we did not even see those people but we just heard gun shots inside the house. MS SOOKA And after this, were you able to go back to the hostel? MR GETVESE We never went back to the hostel since that fight. We were just hiding in the field. MS SOOKA An you were never able to recover the bodies of your wife and your son? MR GETVESE I never, they disappeared that day. Even at the police station, when I tried to enquire, the policemen chased me away saying that they don't want anybody there. And there were gunshots all the time, I never had a chance to go and look for my wife and child and I was also injured on that particular day and landed in hospital. MS SOOKA How long were you in hospital? TEMBISA HEARING TRC/GAUTENG 12 GETVESE MR GETVESE I was discharged in the second week with the plaster of paris on. MS SOOKA Which police station did you go to to report this matter? MR GETVESE Here at Rabasotho. MS SOOKA Do you know the name of the police who you dealt with at Rabasotho? MR GETVESE I do not know him because there are many policemen there but this particular black policeman just told me that he does not want anybody around here but there were many policemen just roaming around. They were just shouting that they don't want anybody there. MS SOOKA On that particular day when you ran away from the hostel after your wife had been killed, did you see any policemen around in the area? MR GETVESE I went to check my wife but the policemen were removing dead bodies with their yellow vans. That's when I decided to go and check here in Rabasotho Police Station because they were picking up the dead bodies to see if my wife was there as well but unfortunately they chased us away. MS SOOKA one more question, where do you stay now Tata? MR GETVESE I'm staying here in Madelokufa. MS SOOKA And besides yourself, was there any other witness that you know that witnessed this killing of your wife and son? MR GETVESE There is no one because I was the only one and there was just unrest, I just identified my wife but I never got the opportunity to come nearer her, but I did identify my wife. MS SOOKA Before this happened, had there been any TEMBISA HEARING TRC/GAUTENG 13 GETVESE problems and any of the other people who lived with you in the same room? MR GETVESE There were no problems. MS SOOKA And had there been any problems between the Xhosa speaking men and Zulu speaking men in the hostel? MR GETVESE No I never heard of any such a problem, but I just saw this happening suddenly. MS SOOKA Thankyou Tata, I'm going to ask the chairperson if the other Commissioners have questions for you. CHAIRPERSON We want to thank you very much Sir, Joyce Seroke? MS SEROKE Mr Getvese, you said you never found your wife's body and your son. MR GETVESE Yes that's true. MS SEROKE Did you try and enquire at the police station? MR GETVESE Yes Sir. MS SEROKE Because you thought that the policeman might be having this body, they were collecting these bodies? MR GETVESE Yes it is so. MS SEROKE As you were enquiring around the area, were there any news about where these bodies were taken to if they were not in the mortuaries? MR GETVESE No I never knew and never heard. But when I tried to inquire, that's when I sustained these injuries and I couldn't pursue the matter further. MS SEROKE Even now that you have healed, you never tried to enquire furthermore? MR GETVESE No I never did because I just gave up. I felt helpless. MS SEROKE Thank you. CHAIRPERSON We thank you very much Sir. If I can just TEMBISA HEARING TRC/GAUTENG 14 GETVESE ask you one question? You said at the moment, where are you staying? MR GETVESE I'm staying at Madelakufa. CHAIRPERSON Waht kind of a place is it? Is it or a house? MR GETVESE It's a shack. CHAIRPERSON Are you staying with anyone? A female? MR GETVESE No, I'm not staying with anyone. CHAIRPERSON Are you staying with children? MR GETVESE No with no children. CHAIRPERSON Are you staying all by yourself? MR GETVESE Yes that's right. CHAIRPERSON How do you survive? MR GETVESE I do part time jobs on an irregular basis. CHAIRPERSON We thank you very much for telling us this news and we'll try and investigate and get back to you. Thank you very much. TEMBISA HEARING TRC/GAUTENG 15 DLAMINI CHAIRPERSON: We'll call the next witness before we go for lunch, that is Dumasini Henry Dlamini. We like to welcome you Dumasini Dlamini, I would like you to stand up to take an oath. DUMUSANI HENRY DLAMINI (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON This is your time, but firstly I'd like to ask the audience that when the witness is giving evidence before the Commission, we must give him the chance and the respect that he deserves, whether we like whatever evidence is given or not, we like people to keep[ quiet on the floor. We'd like you to relax and tell us more about yourself, where you come from and also your story. MR DLAMINI My name is Dumusani Dlamini. It was on the first of April 1992, it was about seven and we were sitting in the house with my mother, my cousin and some other children. At about 8 o'clock we heard gunshots. It continued until past eight. The noise subside and we thought everything was well. Unfortunately they were still coming to our house. As we were sitting in the house my mother was in the kitchen and my friend was in the dining room and my cousin was sitting in the bedroom with the children. We waited, however the Toasters Gang and the Inkatha people came into the house, we could see them through the window, they shot my friend first on his left hand, he fell on the ground under a sideboard, my mother came out of the kitchen and she went to investigate about the shootings. Unfortunately the young boy was still standing outside looking at him and then he shot at my mother with an AK 47. The children started making a noise in the house and he shot in the direction of the bedroom. They started running and hiding TEMBISA HEARING TRC/GAUTENG 16 DLAMINI under the bed and we thought the people are gone. Unfortunately they were still hiding outside the houses. Tammy decided to go outside to go out next door to my sister by the name of Tiny to ask for help because he was injured. My sister asked him what had happened, and he just told her that he had been shot. Tiny was also afraid to get out of the house. The neighbour also came to ask what had happened and we told them we were shot. After some time Titi our neighbour came to our house, it was dark, we'd already switched off all the lights. My mother was already dead, her legs were hanging over the side of the bedroom and the whole body was in the dining room. We tried to call the ambulance and they told us that they were afraid to come to our place because the people were shooting at each other. We met a hippo on the street and they we coming to collect another corpse. They said they would call a van to take her. When we arrived at Rabasotho, one policeman asked why they have to go to the other place, not Ntabene and he started arguing and they were saying that they were not going to carry the corpse. The other police said, "You have to carry them", and we tried to explain that they have to help us. They called some prisoners to help us carry the body and put the corpse in the mortuary. CHAIRPERSON We thank you very much, as you have given us this painful evidence as you witnessed the killing of your mother in front of you. We know that this might be painful to your heart. I'd like to ask you a few questions in order to get clarity on this case. You said you were sitting and heard some gunshots. In the first place, did you belong to any political organisation as a family. TEMBISA HEARING TRC/GAUTENG 17 DLAMINI MR DLAMINI Yes we do. CHAIRPERSON Can you tell us about yourself, your mother and other people as to which political organisation you belong? MR DLAMINI I'll say the children were ANC members and were comrades. When we discovered later they were looking for us and were targeting for us, unfortunately they got my mother. They killed her because her children were comrades because there was some battle between the gangsters, the Toasters and us, we tried to find them. They ran away to another place, its Visumuzi and they mixed with Inkatha. The Toasters were the people who had the fullest knowledge as to what was happening about politics within the community. Those are the people who were involved together with Inkatha. CHAIRPERSON On that particular day when this incident happened, you said there was this young man who was standing, this is the man who shot so many times and you thought he had gone but unfortunately he was still around. Is it a person you know? MR DLAMINI Yes I know the person. CHAIRPERSON As you are sitting here, is he still alive around in the community? MR DLAMINI You mean the young man? He was burned and his name is Yster. CHAIRPERSON Can you repeat that? MR DLAMINI He was killed, his body was exhumed and burned after he died. CHAIRPERSON How was he killed? MR DLAMINI He was shot at Visumuzi. CHAIRPERSON You said he arrived and shot at your place. TEMBISA HEARING TRC/GAUTENG 18 DLAMINI Is this killing connected to his killing? MR DLAMINI No I'll say they were arguing over their farms, It wasn't connected to what happened at our place. They were fighting amongst themselves. CHAIRPERSON You talked about the Toasters and you said this man was a member of the Toasters Gang. Can you explain more about this gang? Maybe this can help us in getting clarity that was given to the Commission in the evidence before. MR DLAMINI I'll say the Zulus came together with the Toasters Gang. It was a war between the Comrades and the Toasters, because the Toasters were robbing people in the community, they lived Tamburg and went to stay at Visumuzi, therefore they got the chance to attack the community, because they knew where we stayed and this man was also a member of the gang. CHAIRPERSON When you talk about the Toasters, how many people were there? MR DLAMINI They were gangsters in the community. CHAIRPERSON I know some gangsters were small gangs and some others are big gangs, they also have some branches and can you tell us how big the gangs were. MR DLAMINI There were many gangsters, they didn't have a branch, they were from Tamberger Section in the location. CHAIRPERSON I can see that you don't have a clear picture as to how many there were, but can you estimate? MR DLAMINI There more than ten. CHAIRPERSON How many were there, just give an approximate figure. MR DLAMINI I will say there were about twenty something. CHAIRPERSON There are also some people you mentioned in TEMBISA HEARING TRC/GAUTENG 19 DLAMINI your statement. You said they witnessed this incident when your mother was shot. MR DLAMINI Yes my cousin who passed away. CHAIRPERSON As you said, you know the person who shot your mother. After the incident, did you try to open a case with the police or try to contact some lawyers about this matter? MR DLAMINI Yes we gave a statement at Rabasotho and nothing happened. CHAIRPERSON Have you ever been called to give some evidence about the matter? MR DLAMINI No. CHAIRPERSON I would like to thank you and I'll ask the other Commissioners to ask questions to get clarity on this matter. MS SEROKE Dumusani in your statement, you mention Mr Dusi. Can you tell us more about this man, how is he connected to the Toasters. MR DLAMINI He's the man who found a place for them at Vusumuzi because he didn't like Comrades. MS SEROKE As you say he didn't like comrades, to which political organisation did he belong? MR DLAMINI He was an Inkatha member. MS SEROKE Is this therefore a reason why he tried to accommodate them after you chased them from Tembeka? MR DLAMINI Yes. MS SEROKE Is Mr Dusi still alive? MR DLAMINI Yes he's still alive. MS SEROKE What's he doing? MR DLAMINI He's staying at Vusumuzi, I don't know what he's doing. TEMBISA HEARING TRC/GAUTENG 20 DLAMINI MS SEROKE You also told us that the Toasters, one of themwas Yster, Sdumu, Nanguzi and Smanga, and you told us that Yster has been killed. Where are the other three? MR DLAMINI They are still alive. MS SEROKE What are they doing? MR DLAMINI I will say they are around but they're not prepared to talk about it. MS SEROKE When you meet them, knowing that they've caused so much trouble, what does the community say about them? MR DLAMINI Even the community talks about peace today. MS SEROKE You mean there's peace with them? MR DLAMINI Yes that's true. MS SEROKE These Toasters, were they comrades before they became gangsters? MR DLAMINI That is correct. MS SEROKE Do you know exactly what changed their..... MR DLAMINI I'll say what changed them is that there were problems in the location and that when someone kills he had to be killed. There was a mistake, one of the comrades shot their friend and they started to change and they became Toasters. However this comrade has not been killed and he was taken to Rabasotho Police Station and they were angry about this issue so they started joining the gangsters. MS SEROKE Where does this name come from? MR DLAMINI I don't know. MS SEROKE Because myself, I know the toaster that I toast my bread at home, does it mean as I know that we normally toast bread, they were also toasting bread? MR DLAMINI No they were shooting. MS SEROKE Thank you. MR LEWIN Mr Dlamini, can I ask you just a little bit more TEMBISA HEARING TRC/GAUTENG 21 DLAMINI about the background because obviously it is an interesting case. We were told yesterday that the Toasters originated here in Tambeka. Would you confirm that? MR DLAMINI Yes. MR LEWIN Do they still exist? MR DLAMINI Yes. MR LEWIN In what shape or form? MR DLAMINI People are prepared to have peace and are living peacefully. MR LEWIN So do they still exist as a identifiable group? MR DLAMINI They are not a group of Toasters, and they've dispersed now, they're staying in different areas. MR LEWIN Okay and could I ask you when they were functioning, would you describe them as you have described them, as gangsters? But would you say they were a criminal gang or a political gang? Or a bit of both? MR DLAMINI They were a criminal gang. MR LEWIN But they used politically then? MR DLAMINI That's so. MR LEWIN On their own initiative or were they used by other people? MR DLAMINI Initially they just ganged on their own but as soon as they stayed Vusumuzi they were controlled and given instructions as to what to do. MR LEWIN And that's how you were attacked? MR DLAMINI Yes Sir. CHAIRPERSON Yasmin Sooka? MS SOOKA Dumusani, initially the toasters were called the Toasters because they used to go out on outings and braai meat or roast meat but later on, is it true that they also burned the people that they killed? TEMBISA HEARING TRC/GAUTENG 22 DLAMINI MR DLAMINI Yes, whenever they would find a comrade they would take you in their car and then they will kill you and then they will burn you. MS SOOKA That is how the name stuck to them? MR DLAMINI It is so, yes. MS SOOKA If they were recruited by the IFP people in the Vusumuzi Hostel, how come Yster came to be killed by a person in the hostel? MR DLAMINI As I hear, according to the hostel dwellers, it all broke out in a dice game. They were gambling. MS SOOKA But later on when Yster was killed, when there was a further fight between the Comrades and the Toasters, what, why did the fight not break out between the people in the hostel and the Toasters, why was the fight between the Comrades and the Toasters, because the Comrades were not responsible for Yster's death? MR DLAMINI I don't know why they fight against the hostel dwellers. MS SOOKA And who was responsible for taking Yster's body out of the grave, was it the Comrades or -? MR DLAMINI That I don't know. CHAIRPERSON Order order, order please! Please let's have some silence! MS SOOKA Who burned Yster's body afterwards? MR DLAMINI I don't know, I just heard that his body had been exhumed and burned. I went to go and watch and I just told myself that at least they have revenged on our behalf. MS SOOKA Are you aware of the fact that there are members of the gang who are in prison and that they intend applying for amnesty? MR DLAMINI Yes I'm aware of that. TEMBISA HEARING TRC/GAUTENG 23 DLAMINI MS SOOKA Thank you. At this point in time, if the members of this gang came back into the community, would there be peace in the community or would there still be problems between members of the gang and the Comrades? MR DLAMINI I don't know because some of the community are still affected by loss because these gangs robbed the community as well, and as well, I would be on of the people who would be very happy if they could be killed. The person who killed my mother as well. MS SOOKA Thank you. CHAIRPERSON If I can just ask one question again? How do you survive? MR DLAMINI At the moment I've just started working, but before I was struggling because they killed somebody who was supporting us. CHAIRPERSON When you say this you are talking about your mother? MR DLAMINI Yes, my mother. CHAIRPERSON When you say that you were struggling, were you talking about your disturbed state? MR DLAMINI Yes I was very disturbed, still today. CHAIRPERSON Did this disturb you in order to get employment. MR DLAMINI Yes it did. I stayed some time not working because my employer did suggest that I must take some leave because I was working with Sharp Machinery, so they suggested I must take some time off because they could see that I was mentally disturbed. Because I was staying with my mother and I was working and she was surviving by selling some fish and food at the school. CHAIRPERSON Is there any form of help that you tried to TEMBISA HEARING TRC/GAUTENG 24 DLAMINI get when you realised that this was affecting you mentally? MR DLAMINI I went to stay at my sister's place in Vosloorus for some time because whenever I was at home this would affect me again and haunt me. CHAIRPERSON When you say that she used to haunt me, do you talk about your picture, the last memories of her? MR DLAMINI That is true? CHAIRPERSON The one question to ask you again, Dumusani? As we are talking now about reconciliation, what do you think should be done so as to help the youth like you who lost their beloved ones and sustained injuries to be able to get comfort and make sure that this doesn't happen again? MR DLAMINI I had told myself that I just need peace. We think differently. Some people don't want peace, some are still looking into revenge, but I want peace. CHAIRPERSON Dumusani, did Yster have parents, are they still around? At the time he was being buried, how was his funeral? MR DLAMINI I don't know about him. During his funeral there was even shooting in the field again and people were fighting at the funeral. CHAIRPERSON Do you think that his parents were also disturbed by this. Don't you think that maybe we can try and comfort his parents as well and the other youth? You say that you were comforted by the thought that he is dead because they revenged on your behalf by killing Yster. MR DLAMINI Yes. CHAIRPERSON Do you think it would help if Yster's parents can be comforted as well due to the death of their son, who was exhumed even after he was already buried, and burned? MR DLAMINI I don't know how to respond to your question, TEMBISA HEARING TRC/GAUTENG 25 DLAMINI because if we can think of all the things that happened, peace will never prevail but if we can stop revealing all these things, I think then we can bring peace because people will always remember how many people are dead, otherwise we'll kill each other to eternity. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Yasmin Sooka? MS SOOKA What has happened Dumusani, is that while many members of the Toasters gang have learned about the fact that there are a number of cases involving them where people have made statements already to the Truth Commission and some members of the gang have indicated that for those offences which are political, they are going to apply for amnesty and we've also been approached individually by people who are not in jail, who say that they are also coming forward to make statements, and I think that what we do want to appeal to, is that if there members of the gang out there and they have committed offences which are of a political nature, that they have until the 14th of December to apply for amnesty for those matters.