hrvtrans HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATIONS, SUBMISSIONS QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS 1996-11-27 TEMBISA MATILDA SHILABE https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=55980&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/hrvtrans/tembisa/shilabe.htm CHAIRPERSON As is usual, I'll ask one of the Commissioners to assist you in your statement, I'll ask Yasmin Sooka. MS SOOKA Thank you, Ms Shilabe, are you able to hear me clearly? MS SHILABE Yes I can hear you. MS SOOKA Tell me about yourself and how long you've lived in Ivory Park and how many members there are in your family. MS SHILABE I arrived in 1992 at Ivory Park when this incident occurred. Shots were fired at about three o'clock in the morning whilst we were asleep. I felt I'm not brave to remain in the house alone then I ran to my neighbour's house. I found them at the door who were ...(indistinct) people who were just about to run away. I went to the back of this group after hiding myself behind them, shots were fired at us. After they shot they drove away and then we started counting those who were injured, I took one of the parents' children on my back and ran to the hospital. I was not well dressed, then I went inside my house and got dressed. When we arrived at one section of the township we went into one house and asked for transport to the hospital. As we drive past the field we saw this Casper then this man said we must take another road because those people might shoot at us. What I remember on our way to the hospital, we were stopped by a police vehicle who asked us where we were TEMBISA HEARING TRC/GAUTENG 2 SHILABE headed, and we told them people were shot, we told them we don't know by whom. They said, were AK 47 rifles used, we said we don't know. They left us then we continued on our route to the hospital. The child to this mother that I was carrying on my back was not allowed to get into the hospital so I took this child because her mother was not allowed in. Then they took x-rays, she was vomiting blood, we went back home afterwards. We found that Mr Ingwenya had left , he was shot and taken by one man to the hospital, that's when we went back and that's where the whole story ends. MS SOOKA Thank you, I'm going to ask you some questions just to make sure that I'm clear. Did you live next to any of the previous witnesses? MS SHILABE Yes it is so. I stayed with them. MS SOOKA And were you staying alone in your shack? MS SHILABE Yes I stayed alone in my shack. MS SOOKA So you went to seek shelter in the garage as well? MS SHILABE Yes it is so. I left my shack and I ran to the garage. MS SOOKA So you also ran with them to the Umfuleni section, is that right? MS SHILABE No I had not yet arrived at the garage when they ran to Umfuleni section. MS SOOKA So you arrived at the shack when they were coming back? MS SHILABE I think so because I found them at the garage. MS SOOKA: When there was this attack on the house, were you able to see any of the faces of faces of the men who were shooting? MS SHILABE I didn't see a thing because I hid myself TEMBISA HEARING TRC/GAUTENG 3 SHILABE underneath the counter. MS SOOKA So all you saw were the gunshots flying around the room? MS SHILABE Yes it is correct. MS SOOKA And were you at all hurt in this incident? MS SHILABE I didn't sustain any injuries. MS SOOKA You mentioned that on your way to the hospital you saw a Casper. Can you tell me what the colour of the Casper was? MS SHILABE It was during the night, however it looked sort of dark green and grey, it was during the night, I couldn't see clearly. MS SOOKA And the person that you spoke to, was that a policeman or a soldier? MS SHILABE When we left for hospital, it was a policeman. MS SOOKA You mention also that he told you not to go because you might be shot. Was this a white policeman or a black policeman? MS SHILABE It was a mixed group, There were white policemen and black policemen. MS SOOKA What language were they speaking at the time? CHAIRPERSON They were speaking Zulu. MS SOOKA When you arrived at the hospital you also say that your neighbour was not allowed into the hospital. Why was this? MS SHILABE She was carrying a small child on her back, there was a room where we were not allowed with small children inside the hospital. Then I decided to take the child into the hospital, then she undertook x-rays in the hospital. MS SOOKA Did you make any statement to the police after TEMBISA HEARING TRC/GAUTENG 4 SHILABE this had happened? MS SHILABE No. (presumed,no translation here) MS SOOKA In your statement you also mention that shacks were burning in that area. When did you notice that. MS SHILABE Before they started shooting there were already shacks burning. MS SOOKA When you returned back home, was your shack still standing? MS SHILABE Yes. MS SOOKA What was your impression of how many people had been hurt and how many shacks had been burning? MS SHILABE I could not explain how many shacks were burned because that was not my section where I saw the shacks. MS SOOKA So in your section, no shacks had been burned? MS SHILABE No there were no shacks burned in our section. MS SOOKA In the days that came afterwards, did you speak to anybody else about this incident? MS SHILABE Except my neighbours, I talked to no one. MS SOOKA Had all the sections in Ivory been attacked or was it just a few sections and a few streets? MS SHILABE It was about two section which were attacked. MS SOOKA And only in the one section, shacks had been burned? MRS SHILABE I cannot clearly tell but where I observed was in one section that shacks were burned. MS SOOKA Who did you suspect could these attackers have been? MS SHILABE I would be lying, I don't know who attacked us. MS SOOKA How many months have you been living in Ivory TEMBISA HEARING TRC/GAUTENG 5 SHILABE Park before this attack took place? MS SHILABE I cannot remember but I think it was about six months. MS SOOKA Were you involved in any political activity in the area? MS SHILABE No. I was not ever involved in such activities. MS SOOKA Did you know your neighbours well before this? MS SHILABE Yes they were known to me. MS SOOKA Thank you very much. CHAIRPERSON We thank you Mrs Shilabe, I will ask some of our commissioners to ask you some questions. Commissioner Joyce Seroke, Commissioner Hugh Lewin? MR LEWIN If I could just ask one question which I asked the other two witnesses, what do you think was happening that night? MS SHILABE I do not know because even during the day there was nothing happening. We heard nothing, when we were asleep during the night we heard gunshots. MR LEWIN And in the discussions you've had afterwards, have you come up with any ideas yourselves as to what was happening and why? MS SHILABE I would be lying, I know nothing. I had just arrived in that vicinity. MR LEWIN Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Maybe if I can ask you, is it possible that something like this happened and you as neighbours, you didn't discuss it to a point of being much more helpful to the Commission as to what might have happened, because normally in a residential area, if something like this happens, people talk a lot about what has happened and that TEMBISA HEARING TRC/GAUTENG 6 SHILABE will help us a lot as Commission if we can share, even speculations or whatever the talk that went around that time? MS SHILABE To tell the truth, we never discussed this thing, we were busy treating those who were injured, trying to identify those who were injured or who sustained injuries, so we didn't get a chance to talk about this incident. CHAIRPERSON Yasmin Sooka. MS SOOKA I notice in your statement that you say a relative of yours died in the attack. Can you tell me who that was. MS SHILABE It was a child of my neighbour, where I ran for shelter. MS SOOKA To your knowledge, had any attack like this taken place before in Ivory Park? MS SHILABE It had never occurred. MS SOOKA So this the first time there was an attack? MS SHILABE Yes it was the first time that I have noticed this kind of attack in Ivory Park. MS SOOKA Had there been trouble between the residents of Ivory Park and any other people? MS SHILABE No there has never been any problems with the residents of other factions. MS SOOKA Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Mrs Manganye, we welcome you. Even though we have organised that you all sit here at the same time, we will however give each of you -, we will request you to tell us what you remember about what happened at that time as far as you can remember. MRS MANGANYE I stayed a bit far from these ladies but my TEMBISA HEARING TRC/GAUTENG 7 MANGANYE child had visited my friends here. Whilst I was sleeping I heard some gun shots I woke up and I opened the door and I realised that there were a lot of lights in the soccer field and I got worried because my child was not at home. We woke up the following morning and went to the field. When we got there people were lying around there and many people were dead and people were talking to white policemen who were in a Caspar. I thought maybe it was an accident that happened there. It was at Umfuleni, but when I went to my sister's house where my child was sleeping, I couldn't find her but this lady was sitting outside her door crying, and I asked where the children are. She said, she does not know but they're at the hospital, whether they are alive or not, she cannot tell. I started crying as well. I went back home and I decided to go to the hospital as well, but when we got to the hospital we found that people were injured. CHAIRPERSON We thank you. In your statement you have stipulated a different time from the others as if you had heard about this around about a quarter to three. Can you tell us about when this started and what you heard and when? MS MANGANYE I heard some noise of gunshots, it was round about three o'clock, before three o'clock. When I decided to open there were some bright lights in the ground, in the open field as if it was broad daylight but I started to go back in the house, but when we decided to go to the open field, the following morning, we found people who were talking there and there we some people who were lying around who had been injured and some were already taken to hospital. CHAIRPERSON The way you explain it, it's as if some TEMBISA HEARING TRC/GAUTENG 8 MANGANYE people were injured at Umfuleni and some here on the open field, but the others who testified tell us about those who were injured inside the garage. MS MANGANYE It means that before I went to the garage, I passed the open field. That's where dead people were lying around, so I thought this incident only happened in the open field, and then even those who were at Umfuleni, they were already taken to hospital and I found this lady sitting outside the garage and crying. But before I can reach the garage, I have to pass this open field. CHAIRPERSON When you say that you started by the field, we know that it's not an easy thing to try and recall this, but if you can just try and recall, let your memory, in order to help us, more or less what time was it when you got to the ground? MS MANGANYE It was just before 7 o'clock when I went to the open field, but the gun shots were in the morning before 3 o'clock. CHAIRPERSON I want you to try and remember as to how many people you saw and just to try and give us a picture in order to help us, because we are trying to find out about things that we never saw. MS MANGANYE I cannot tell you how many people were there because people were just lying around and I was scared, and as I tried to look further, the policemen chased us away and even other people, because some people were saying that, maybe some of their relatives must be lying here, but I just decided to go to the garage section. That's where I found that people were injured as well, so I realised that this went as far as Umfuleni and I realised that my child was taken with the people that were in the garage to hospital. TEMBISA HEARING TRC/GAUTENG 9 MANGANYE CHAIRPERSON Do you know this policeman who said people must move. MS MANGANYE No, I do not know him. CHAIRPERSON Was he a black or a white policeman? MS MANGANYE He was a black policeman. CHAIRPERSON How many policemen were there? MS MANGANYE There were many policemen and some were inside the Caspar. CHAIRPERSON The people who were lying down, were they injured or were they dead already? MS MANGANYE They were dead already and some were covered already. CHAIRPERSON I heard that you were scared look ...(indistinct), if you can try and help us and tell us how many people there were? MS MANGANYE I didn't see how many people, because even myself, I'm a coward, I just became scared. CHAIRPERSON Can you tell us whether there were two or three in number? MS MANGANYE The person that I saw clearly was the person who was lying on the ground, they shot him and he was facing towards his shack but most of them were just lying on the ground. CHAIRPERSON You child that you said had visited your sister, how old was your child? MS MANGANYE He was five years old at that time but now he is nine years. CHAIRPERSON When you found your child, you found the said lady who told you that your child is at hospital? MS MANGANYE And she gave me my child's card and showed me that my child is definitely in hospital. TEMBISA HEARING TRC/GAUTENG 10 MANGANYE CHAIRPERSON When you got to hospital, do you remember in what situation your child was in? MS MANGANYE I found that my child was shot in the leg and the leg was elevated and my sister's child was also shot as well and the bullet is still embedded in her body but this lady's child was already dead at that time. We were not allowed to see her. CHAIRPERSON As someone who went into the children's ward, how many children were shot that day? MS MANGANYE I think and it was my child and my sister's child. CHAIRPERSON After this were there any means by which you tried to get some legal representation? MS MANGANYE I tried but I realised that you need finance to get a lawyer, and as I am not working, I could not afford this and I couldn't even fetch my child from hospital because of finance. I did go to some lawyers in Kempton Park but they needed finance and I didn't even have money for transport, and that's when I gave up. CHAIRPERSON I thank you. I'll hand over to my colleagues for any further questions to clarify your matter. Yasmin Sooka? MS SOOKA After all of this happened, were you able to talk to people in Ivory Park to find out what had happened that night? MS MANGANYE I don't know, all I heard was gun shots, as to what happened, I don't know? There was no fight during that day, there were no signs of unrest. MS SOOKA Had there been unrest in Ivory Park before this incident? MS MANGANYE No there was no fighting in Ivory Park before TEMBISA HEARING TRC/GAUTENG 11 MANGANYE this. MS SOOKA What were people saying Mama, after this incident had happened? Who were they saying had attacked, did people think it was the police, who did people think were the attackers? MS MANGANYE I don't understand. MS SOOKA After such an incident, people don't keep quiet about this kind of thing. They usually discuss it amongst themselves, now what were your neighbours saying, who did they think had been the attackers? MS MANGANYE I think nothing about that. MS SOOKA Thank you Mama. CHAIRPERSON I would just like to really thank all of you. Before I do that, Yasmin Sooka has got a question. MS SOOKA I have this question for Mrs Mundau. Mama can you tell me, do you think this attack took place because perhaps your husband was a member of the community association? MRS MUNDAU I don't think that is the case because the people he was leading loved him so much and even after this incident they came to help him. CHAIRPERSON Joyce Seroke? MS SEROKE Elsie, you said you live nearby the ground, you also said that when you woke up in the morning you saw many people lying at the ground, does it mean that this incident started at the ground? MS MANGANYE I would say in my opinion, that things might have started at the ground. I wasn't aware that this incident also occurred at the 15th houses because it's next to a river. I just saw the hippo standing on the open ground. TEMBISA HEARING TRC/GAUTENG 12 MANGANYE MS SEROKE When you were asleep at home, did you hear some noise outside at the open field? MS MANGANYE No I didn't hear anything, I just heard the gunshots at about 3 o'clock in the morning. CHAIRPERSON We will try to request the audience to assist us. If there are any people amongst you who know about such incidences, to come forward and give us any information and if they were affected in any manner to give statements and to give any information relating to these incidences. As you can see, these women will never be comforted and live happily in the community unless they know what led to this incident. All of us today are struggling for a better future. These people came forward today because they wish to know why this happened and how did this happen. Everybody who is listening, including the policemen who were in charge at that time, everybody should come forward to the Commission to reveal whatever they know relating to that specific day. We'd like to thank you ladies with your testimony. We put all of you here at the same time, not that we don't realise that you all suffer from pains differently, but we just brought you together seeing that you are coming to talk about one incident. But we will try as the Commission to investigate as to what led to the events o f that specific night. We trust that the community and the policemen will assist us in trying to solve and to reveal the truth as to what led to this incident. We thank you very much and we know that such incidents were happening all over in all communities, they were just meant to scare people, so that even people who intended to be politically inclined, should be scared. We thank you very much. TEMBISA HEARING TRC/GAUTENG 13 NONDLALA We welcome you Mrs Nondlala, we will request you just before your testimony to stand up to take your oath. MRS ELSIE NONDLALA (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON Can you introduce the person who's accompanying you? MRS NONDLALA It's my neighbour. CHAIRPERSON We thank you very much and we welcome your neighbour as well. It is wonderful to see that you support each other in such painful incidents. As it is a tradition we will ask one of our Commissioners to help you to give your evidence. Your issue, it's one of the things that were much in question regarding the fight between ANC and IFP. We'll ask the Commissioner to help you. MR LEWIN Thank you madam Chair, Mrs Nondlala, please comfortable, you are amongst friends. You are going to tell us about an incident that took place a year before the incident in 1991 involving your son. If you could in you own time please and in your own words, tell us please what happened, thank you? MRS NONDLALA It was on a Monday, whilst I was at home. My son came, who was staying in Vusumuzi, he needed food, he told me that he's very hungry. I wanted he didn't go to work. He told me that they had been called to the field. I asked him what's happening, he said, there's a fight there and he didn't know what the fight was all about. I asked him who fighting. He said its us Xhosas, the Zulus and the police. Our weapons are being taken from us but the Zulus' weapons are not being taken. I said to him, if so, go back home then. He agreed to go back home. In the afternoon on the Tuesday two young men came to tell me that Lennox has passed away. I wanted where this TEMBISA HEARING TRC/GAUTENG 14 NONDLALA happened. He said at Vusumuzi. I wanted to know what happened? They said they had gone to collect their clothes, being accompanied by policemen. I wanted to know how this happened? They said that he stayed in an upper area and he was going to collect his clothes but he never managed to leave, but the police found him there and they shot him there on that spot. Thereafter we went to the police station to try and see if they were there because they were taken by this huge van. When we got there at the police station we learned that they were taken the very same night to Boksburg. From the police station we went to the hospital. When we got to the hospital they told us that they were not there. We left again for Boksburg Mortuary. When we looked around he was not there. They told us that there are several mortuaries that we can check. We went to Kempton Park, he was not there either. We proceeded then to other mortuaries. I don't remember them well and we didn't find him. And then we went to Soweto, they told us a few corpses were taken to Soweto but they refused that we should go to Soweto so we came back home. I've finished. MR LEWIN Mama, could I just ask some questions, if you could tell us a little bit more because we weren't there and it's difficult to understand how such terrible things could happen? If you could explain, or if you could tell us a little bit about your son. How old was he, what was he doing and why was he actually in the hostel? MRS NONDLALA He was born in 1949. MR LEWIN Then he was staying in the hostel, what was he doing there. TEMBISA HEARING TRC/GAUTENG 15 NONDLALA MRS NONDLALA He was staying at Vusumuzi Hostel. MR LEWIN So he wasn't staying at home or in his own home? MRS NONDLALA He used to visit during weekends. He was staying on his own. MR LEWIN Did he have a job, did he have some employment? MRS NONDLALA Yes he was working. MR LEWIN Where was he working, can you tell us? MRS NONDLALA He was working for the municipality. MR LEWIN Doing what? MRS NONDLALA He was working in the dumping area. MR LEWIN So was that common for people who worked for the municipality to stay in the hostel? MRS NONDLALA I do not know. MR LEWIN Was he staying there free? MRS NONDLALA They were paying rent. MR LEWIN Paying rent, okay. But was it usual for there to be Xhosa and Zulu speaking people to be together in one hostel? MRS NONDLALA Yes Sir. MR LEWIN Because this then seemed to have been the cause of, or particularly the cause of his death. Do you think that that is the main reason? MRS NONDLALA I do not know the reason for his death. MR LEWIN But when he came to you on the Monday and told you that the police had disarmed the Xhosa speaking people. Does this mean that they were normally armed? MRS NONDLALA They were not armed all the time, they were armed simply because they were called to go to this open field. MR LEWIN And why were they being armed for that event? MRS NONDLALA They were armed because the Zulus were armed TEMBISA HEARING TRC/GAUTENG 16 NONDLALA as well, there at the field. MR LEWIN So everyone was anticipating that there would be a fight? MRS NONDLALA Yes Sir. MR LEWIN When the fights tool place, what did the police do, were there police there and what did they do? MRS NONDLALA You mean the police? They were fighting as well. They were helping the Zulus. MR LEWIN So they were actually taking part in the fight? MRS NONDLALA Yes they were helping. MR LEWIN And where were these police from, do you know that? MRS NONDLALA I don't know where they were from, but we would see those big things that they drive in. MR LEWIN And were there other people that were injured or killed at the same time as your son? MRS NONDLALA Many people were injured on that day. MR LEWIN How many people were killed? MRS NONDLALA I cannot tell you. MR LEWIN And then you tell us this horrible story about looking for your son's body and how you couldn't find it. Was there ever a report made about the incident, or were you ever asked about it by the police or by anybody else? MRS NONDLALA I never gave any report and even the police never enquired. MR LEWIN And nobody ever came to you to offer any information? Did you check up with other mortuaries as to where your son's body might have been kept. You mentioned Boksburg, did you go to others yourself? MRS NONDLALA I went from mortuary to mortuary looking for my son's body. TEMBISA HEARING TRC/GAUTENG 17 NONDLALA MR LEWIN If I could just ask one more question, you mentioned about your son being in the hostel, was he also a member of a political organisation at all? MRS NONDLALA I don't know whether he was a member of any political organisation. MR LEWIN Thank you very much Mama, I'm sure that there will be other questions from the other commissioners, thank you. CHAIRPERSON We thank you very much. We will talk Xhosa because I don't want to remind you of those Zulu men. I'll ask Joyce Seroke to ask any questions. MS SEROKE Mama, you say the Zulus were armed and the others were armed as well. What weapons were they, do you know what kind of weapons they wee? MRS NONDLALA Are you talking about our group? They were carrying sticks and, I don't know what the Zulus were but ours had kieries and pipes. MS SEROKE You also say that you went from mortuaries like boksburg, Kempton Park and when you wanted to try to go to Soweto, were you denied or did you give up? MRS NONDLALA Somebody said we should not go to Soweto because there is trouble there. MS SEROKE Is their no one from your side who said he might still try and go to Soweto and check the mortuary? MRS NONDLALA No, no one did. MS SEROKE The one who came to say that your son had gone to fetch his clothes, was he in his company? MRS NONDLALA Yes they were together. MS SEROKE Did he mention who did this to your son? MRS NONDLALA He said it's the Zulus and the policemen. MS SEROKE And how did he manage to escape? TEMBISA HEARING TRC/GAUTENG 18 NONDLALA MRS NONDLALA They were staying in a lower area. MS SEROKE Did he have a wife. MRS NONDLALA No he didn't. MS SEROKE Was he not married? MRS NONDLALA Yes he was not yet married. MS SEROKE ...(indistinct) at home? MRS NONDLALA What was the cause of him having to move to hostel, did he like to stay there? MRS NONDLALA Yes he preferred to stay at the hostel. CHAIRPERSON Yasmin Sooka. MS SOOKA You talked about our group and the Zulus, what was happening in the hostel that you knew about? MRS NONDLALA People were fighting. MS SOOKA Why were they fighting? MRS NONDLALA I don't know. MS SOOKA What did the boy who came back to you tell you about the fights? MRS NONDLALA He told me that people were fighting on the other side. I told him that he must come back if people were fighting and he promised that he will come back. That was the last time I saw him. MS SOOKA Mama, the boys that came to tell you that your son had died, had they been working at the time when he was killed? MRS NONDLALA That's true. MS SOOKA Do you know who they are Mama, do you know their names? MRS NONDLALA I don't know them. MS SOOKA And have they never been back to see you again? MRS NONDLALA Never. MS SOOKA They were also involved in the fighting? TEMBISA HEARING TRC/GAUTENG 19 NONDLALA MRS NONDLALA Yes that is true. MS SOOKA After your son died when you were looking for the body, were not you not able to ask them where his body was? MRS NONDLALA That's correct. MS SOOKA Thank you Mama. Mama did you go to a lawyer or to the church or anybody to help you? MRS NONDLALA I didn't go to lawyers, nor to churches, but however the church came to help me during the funeral. MS SOOKA Which church was that Mama? MRS NONDLALA Presbyterian Church. MS SOOKA And Mama did you go to your son's employer the municipality to ask them if they knew anything about the matter? MRS NONDLALA Yes I did go to the employer. They said there's nothing they're going to do if we can't find him. MS SOOKA Do you know who the employer was. MRS NONDLALA I don't know them very well but I have their particulars. MS SOOKA Did they give you any money after all of this? MRS NONDLALA No, never. MS SOOKA Thank you Mama. CHAIRPERSON We like to thank you very much, your story is one of the painful stories that we heard all over the country. We discover that when people were fighting, police were also involved, taking sides. However at the end of the day, most of the black community suffered in these incidences, but before you leave the Commission I will like you to tell the Commission about your wishes. Things that you might like the Commission to do for you. What are your wishes for the Commission, things that you would like to see TEMBISA HEARING TRC/GAUTENG 20 NONDLALA happening to make your spirit rest. MRS NONDLALA I'm troubled because I can't find my child and I don't know what I'm going to do. CHAIRPERSON We'd like to thank you and we'll try and investigate your case, and we'll also try and keep in contact with you before we've finished the investigation. Those who came here to get paid, we are informed that we have to tell them to go to Kopaneng Section, that's where they are going to paid. The people who help witnesses, I'm referring to briefers, we will like to ask them at this moment to accompany the witness out, taking them to where they are going to get their tea, and they should be followed by those who assist witnesses or their relatives. I would like to ask one of the briefers to direct them to the tea room. We will be back at half past eleven. Thank you.