hrvtrans 1 D MAY, HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATIONS, SUBMISSIONS QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS 1996-08-28 UITENHAGE 3 DANILE WILBERFORCE MAY https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=56008&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/hrvtrans/uiten/may.htm CHAIRPERSON: We are now going to call Danile Wilberforce May. Mr Sandi will lead you. DANILE WILBERFORCE MAY: (sworn states) MR SANDI: Mr May, when I look at your statement, your complaint is in a certain year, in the past years, a certain gentlemen whom you are going to mention later on, accused you in Port Elizabeth, that you were a police informer or sell out. Because of this allegation, by this person, a lot of things happened to you. Just before we get into that, Mr May, can we start with some of the important things. Right now, you are no longer staying in Port ElizabEth, where are you staying, Mr May? MR MAY: I am staying in Gauteng. MR SANDI: Let's make it quick Mr May, and get into details of what you are going to talk about. MR MAY: Thank you very much Mr Sandi. I am one of the people who were in the forefront. The people who formed the organisation called Zwide Residential Organisation. I was with Mr Tozamile Botha. The aim of this organisation was to fight that the then municipality, we mustn't pay for rates. By that time we didn't know that people are supposed to pay for water. We formed this organisation. MR SANDI: What year was that? MR MAY: That was in 1979. UITENHAGE HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE 2 D MAY MR SANDI: Can you mention again, the name of this organisation MR MAY: It was Zwide Residential Association. After this organisation was formed, we sat down as members of the executive committee, which among them where people like, Sipho Grootbom and Tolile Mbepe and others. We took a decision that the level of this organisation is not big enough. MR SANDI: Couldn't you form a bigger organisation than that on? MR MAY: There was another organisation for the people of Fort Tishas called the Fort Organisation, and another one which was called Gwasakeli for residents. With the leaders of these organisations, we formed another one which was called PEPCO. During this time, in Zwide, Mr Botha was president, and I was his secretary, when we formed this organisation. In all the meetings that we used to hold, they used to be big at that time because most of the people were mostly interested in this matter of rent and water. I was always in front as a secretary of this organisation and Tozamile Botha who was a spokesman, this was for Zwide Residential Association. I was a secretary and Tozamile Botha was a chairman. He managed that in this organisation, there was a rent boycott which was discussed by these. I was for the rent boycott and Tozamile was against the rent boycott. The rent boycott was successful because I was always the MC of this organisation, and I managed. I was a leader of this rent boycott. The people were not paying rent in Zwide, the people were not paying for water, they were not paying for electricity. UITENHAGE HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE 3 D MAY In September, I can't remember the date, whether it was 1979, we formed this PEPCO because we wanted this thing to take place all over, not only in Zwide, but also in Port Elizabeth. After forming PEPCO, since there was fault in Zwide, and Gwazakeli, we had to create Walmer and New Brighton townships. During a certain year, I think it was towards the end of 1980 or the beginning of 1981. MR SANDI: Excuse me Mr May, without interrupting you, I want to confirm that we are together with these events. You are talking the formation of PEPCO. It is you and Mr Tozamile Botha who were executive members of PEPCO? MR MAY: Thank you. Because of the fact that there was this rent boycott, which was taking place only in Zwide, I was no longer of the Zwide, but I was not in the top executive of PEPCO, so I remained being the secretary of this other association. Being a leader of this rent boycott which took place in 1980. Towards the end of 1990 and the beginning of 1991, there was a residents meeting in Walmer, it was very hot. During that time, PEPCO was popular in the Western Cape. During this meeting, we also had another meeting for Zwide residents. I was left being a leader of the Randville Court in Zwide and I was in charge of that meeting, which was held in Kaalnets Cinema on that particular evening. During that particular evening, the executive of Pepcore including Chume. MR SANDI: Mr May, can we just talk about this meeting where you were accused. MR MAY: I am coming bit by bit. On that particular meeting, people like Palochimoto, Zamile Botha from Walmer, UITENHAGE HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE 4 D MAY were arrested by the police. I was in Zwide, in a meeting there. The following day, I got the information that they were arrested. After that, as the people who formed this PEPCO, we took a decision that if they are arrested, we are still facing this matter of rent boycott, we rather start campaigning and fund raise. We fund raised in Zwide Residential Association. MR SANDI: Excuse me Mr May, I would request that you stick to the incident that affected you as a person, as a person who is complaining. While you are still there, I am going to ask you questions. In that meeting, where you say Mr Botha accused you, did he tell you the reason? MR MAY: No, he didn't explain anything to me, he may have told the other people. MR SANDI: Were you present at that meeting? MR MAY: No, I was not in the first meeting, the one that was held in front of my house, with his colleague. MR SANDI: Who was present? MR MAY: My wife was in the house. MR SANDI: These two meetings that you are referring to, do you refer to the meetings that you are inside the house, or just the meetings that were held in an open place just like this one? MR MAY: When he came back from detention, he didn't come back to the meetings because they were banned. The meeting that he used to hold were the private meetings. On this particular night, he had a meeting with Fort workers that's when they decided to go to my place where they held the meeting in front of my house and he brought these accusations. UITENHAGE HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE 5 D MAY MR SANDI: Were you present? MR MAY: No, my wife was in the house, I came, and it was towards the end of the meeting. MR SANDI: Were there other people who came to you and told you that you are accused by Mr Botha? MR MAY: When I arrived at this meeting, as it was held at the front of my house, when I heard that they were talking about me, and I told them that I was present, I wanted to know what was happening, but there were people who told me that Botha is saying this and that about me. I wanted the meeting to continue, but the meeting was terminated. MR SANDI: Did you ask Mr Botha what me meant by that? MR MAY: About in the past 6 to 7 weeks I met him. MR SANDI: I mean, during the time before he left the country, did you make any efforts that a person who said all these things about you in public, you meet that particular person and asked for an explanation? MR MAY: During that very same week, I called a meeting, which was held in Countsnemmar, which was on a Sunday, as I wanted a full explanation. MR SANDI: Did you get any explanation, what was the explanation? MR MAY: The meeting was adjourned without him coming forward to explain the accusations, instead he repeated that I sold him out. MR SANDI: You continue in your statement saying that Mr Botha left the country, going to another country. How did you get that information, did you read that information in the newspaper, or what? MR MAY: I was staying in no.32 Mangai Street, and he was staying directly opposite my house. UITENHAGE HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE 6 D MAY MR SANDI: You even said in your statement, because of these accusations, you decided to quit politics, you decided to be a business man. Is there any specific reason, or any motivation that lead you to do that? MR MAY: During that time, the Pepcore was divided into two groups. It was destroyed, and there were two groups formed, there is Kosana and Mr Botha. I decided to step down, I was no longer working as a person who was working in Barclays Bank then, I discovered that if I was going to concentrate on politics, I was not going to gain anything. I decided to work for myself. MR SANDI: Just before we go to the list of things that happened to you because of these accusations, I would like to ask a question. Are your comrades, the very comrades that you were with in that Pepcore Organisation, did you tell them the reasons for you to quit. MR MAY: The majority of the Pepcore, with the majority of the Pepcore Founders, we stepped in. MR SANDI: Can we go now to the details, where you say as a businessman, you started a business as a Paratics man in 1984, and you got married. What incident took place in your life during the time you were a businessman because of these accusations in 1980. MR MAY: The first one that I can talk about, on a certain day, I was on my way to a business meeting. I went past Motherwell. My business was in Motherwell, because I was evicted from my house. I was in front of Mr Klaasie's house who is a brother of Mr Golo, the owner of the Themba Labanto Supermarket. He was also a business partner, we were going to a meeting on that particular day. I went past his house. MR SANDI: Do you refer to this particular day in 1985, UITENHAGE HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE 7 D MAY whereby the Themba Labanto Supermarket in Veeplaas, where you had a business. MR MAY: Yes, I am referring to that particular day, but my business was in Motherwell Township, but I went to another businessman who was in Veeplaas because we were going to the same meeting. MR SANDI: Let us talk about that day at Themba Labanto Supermarket. You say people came in, on that particular day, people who called themselves comrades, or the people that you believed were comrades, these people abducted you? What did they say, did they give you any reasons for this abduction? MR MAY: They said that I sold out Mr Botha. MR SANDI: Do you know these people who were doing this? MR MAY: If I can go up and down, I can get one of them, but I don't know, nobody knows who were doing these things, but it is not very easy to point them, but they were comrades. MR SANDI: You mentioned two gentlemen in your statement. You say that they helped you to escape. Can you briefly tell about how you knew the men? MR MAY: If the two gentlemen that you are referring to are Mr Glass and Mr Aplay, I am not sure if you are talking about them, can you please confirm that? MR SANDI: Yes, I wanted you to mention those names, thank you. ...(Tape ends)... MR MAY: Because we were going to attend a meeting together. He is the one, that when these comrades abducted me, he forced that he was not going to be left behind. He followed with his car, behind my car, the one that was taken by these comrades. Mr Glass saw where these comrades took me. MR SANDI: You said that this Mr Glass, is late now, what UITENHAGE HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE 8 D MAY was the cause of his death, is it because of that conflict? MR MAY: No, he died in a car accident. MR SANDI: Before we go further, I want to ask this question, you say that on this particular day, you survived the necklace, they were going to necklace you? MR MAY: Yes, that is correct. MR SANDI: Was there any evidence that they were going to necklace you? Did they have a tyre? MR MAY: The petrol was drained from my car, and they were even going to use my own spare wheel, and my petrol. MR SANDI: On the 31 December 1991, you say that among the businesses that you had, you say that you had a butchery, a club house? MR MAY: Yes, that is correct. MR SANDI: Before we talk about that, I would like to go back to that second gentleman, who helped you, besides Mr Aplay. Is that Mr Sitelo Aplay who was head of the Anti Crime? MR MAY: Yes, that is correct. MR SANDI: Yes, we can go on now. You say that in that Club House on the 31 December, can you briefly tell us what happened? MR MAY: On the 31 December, about 7:30 in the evening, people fought in my tavern. MR SANDI: Who were fighting? MR MAY: It was me, and the other comrades who were about 9. MR SANDI: Is there anything that they said concerning the accusations of Mr Botha? MR MAY: There was nothing, there was no accusation which was connected to Mr Botha, besides the fact that they were saying that I am rich because of the money from the Boers. UITENHAGE HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE 9 D MAY Though I was telling them to go home, because I wanted to close the Tavern. MR SANDI: Do you say that this attack is connected to this accusation of Mr Botha? MR MAY: Yes, that is correct. MR SANDI: Can you tell us the reason why you reconcile the two, whereas they said nothing concerning that accusation? MR MAY: These people were comrades, who abducted me, who were going to necklace me. It was also the comrades who sat in my house forcefully. The fact that they said that I was rich because of the money from the Boers, as a person who was an informer, who sold Mr Botha, that is the reason why I connect the two. MR SANDI: Do you say, on the 1 January 1992, when you went to your businesses, you were told that there were combis that are looking for you, the combis that belonged to the comrades, did they tell you who these comrades were? MR MAY: No, I was not told. They just said to me that the comrades were looking for me, the comrades from Motherwell were looking for me. MR SANDI: But because you heard that it was a combi that was looking for you, you decided to go and see a certain gentleman whom you refer as Mr Mondem Ntanga, who was the chairman of the Mother Well Civic Organisation. Did you talk with Mr Ntanga? MR MAY: Before I could talk to Mr Ntanga, they arrived, the workers arrived before I could even open the business. When I opened the business, the comrades came and told me that they want me in there meeting but they didn't tell me the reason. I decided to go and meet the chairman of the branch of the Pepcore of Motherwell, which was Mr Ntanga then. I UITENHAGE HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE 10 D MAY wanted to know the agenda for that meeting. MR SANDI: The investigation that Mr Ntanga said he was going to make concerning this. Was there anything that you gathered from that? MR MAY: When I arrived there, before 10:00, I went to him as a person, who was a chairman because I wanted to know more about the agenda because he told me that he is not clear about the agenda, because it is the ASEP, and Azapo. He is not the one who called the meeting. MR SANDI: Do you mean that you arrived in the meeting which had it's own matters that were to be discussed? MR MAY: Yes, that is correct. MR SANDI: By the way, you said what happened to your butchery? MR MAY: In this meeting, I was requested to wait outside. They called me at about 11:30. At about 11:30 I was told that the decision has been taken that I must go and close down all my businesses in Motherwell and I must leave Mother Well before 12:00 that day. MR SANDI: Who took over your butchery, the butcher that you complained about? MR MAY: First of all, I closed my butchery because it was the 1 December 1992. I closed my butchery and everything was rotten, especially the food. I tried to consult people telephonically, I was writing to them, I was going to the people personally for help, but instead of getting a positive answer from these people, after three of four months, I discovered that someone has taken over by the name of Wiseman Kula, who was the co-chairman of that meeting where he requested that I close my butchery. MR SANDI: In order for us to reach our conclusion, you said UITENHAGE HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE 11 D MAY because of this treatment, you left Port Elizabeth, you decided to go to Gauteng, are you a businessman there also? MR MAY: No, I am just staying there. I am just sitting. MR SANDI: Towards our conclusion, Mr May, what are your wishes, what is your request to the Commission? MR MAY: My first wish is I want to get a full explanation and he must also tell the people of Port Elizabeth and Uitenhage about me and he mustn't say that even when I come, the people must not look at me and feel jealous, he must just explain the details of these accusations. MR SANDI: Among other things, you say you request that the Commission must investigate about your butchery and your Club House, the one that you lost under those conditions. How can you regain them is that correct? MR MAY: It is not only that, I want you to investigate, but I want this commission to get my butchery back from the ANC. I know that you don't have enough money, but ANC has got some means to bring back my house and by butchery and my family and to regain my dignity. MR SANDI: Thank you very much Mr May, we are going to investigate, we are going to find the truth, you can now go back to your seat.