hrvtrans HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATIONS, SUBMISSIONS QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS 1996-08-26 UITENHAGE 1 ROSEY NOCAWE MHLAWULI EC /96 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=56013&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/hrvtrans/uiten/mhlawuli.htm CHAIRPERSON . . . . . Thank you Mr Chairperson and can I lead Nocawe into an oath. ROSEY NOCAWE MHLAWULI (Sworn duly states) CHAIRPERSON Mrs Rosey Mhlawuli we welcome you before this Commission and we thank you that you have availed yourself on behalf of Thobile Busakwe. We are now going to hand you over to Ms Pumla Madikizela-Gobodo who is going to lead you with questions on behalf of this Commission. Over to you Pumla. MS GOBODO Thank you Mr Chairperson. We greet you Nocawe. We did talk earlier on. Could you explain to us how you were affected and shot by the police as you were going round with Thobile's mother to investigate about Thobile's matter. Could you please first explain to us when this incident happened in 1986, where were you staying? MRS MHLAWULI I was staying in 7th Avenue, in Despatch. MS GOBODO Is that a small town nearby here, Uitenhage? MRS MHLAWULI Yes. MS GOBODO What was happening in Uitenhage at the time. What was the atmosphere at the time? MRS MHLAWULI It was very bad, it was the time when children were dying and on this particular night, Thobile Busakwe's mother came to me at 2.00am and knocked at our door. We opened for her and she said the police had just left her house and they had come to take Thobile Busakwe 's identity document. He wanted to go and check in the hall as to what Thobile had actually done, because he thought that perhaps Thobile had done something wrong in the hall. I decided to accompany her. MS GOBODO So you say Thobile's mother could not hear properly? MRS MHLAWULI Yes. MS GOBODO She came to you as a neighbour after the police had come to demand Thobile's identity document? MRS MHLAWULI Yes. MS GOBODO Was it the usual practice that the policemen should come and demand identity documents that belonged to children at that time. MRS MHLAWULI No. We were shocked as a result. That is why we thought Thobile had done something at the hall which was the reason why we went to the hall and at the hall he was not there. This hall was not very far from the place of the Chaka policemen. In the hall there was a discotheque and so we decided to go to the Chaka policemen where Thobile's mother was going to tell them that Thobile had disappeared. MS GOBODO Now, you say the Tshaka's had an office there in the location, was it an office for the police called the "Ama Tshaka". MRS MHLAWULI Yes. MS GOBODO Is that were you went them that you could not find Thobile? MRS MHLAWULI Yes. So these policemen said we should go to the charge office and they were preparing, but we did not know that they were preparing to shoot us. I could hear them shuffling and we decided to run into the street to the car we had parked quite a distance from this office. There were loud shots and I was hit all over the body, at the back and I didn't know what had happened to Thobile's mother because I was all by myself in the street. As I was getting into the car, I turned and then I was hit just behind the ear with a bullet and I was bleeding profusely. I sat there and I was terrified in a very bad way, then my daughter came and asked "Were are you sissy, are you not injured", I said "No, they have shot me", then I said, "Please speak softly because they are now going to arrest me and send me to jail", so we moved on. MS GOBODO Did you go to your house? MRS MHLAWULI Yes. MS GOBODO As you were saying your daughter should not speak loudly because you were terrified that if they had seen that you had been injured they were going to arrest you and lock you in? MRS MHLAWULI Yes. So we went to the house and I was very thirsty and then my sister said I should not drink because people had the belief that if were to drink water, I was going to die so I slept in one of the bedrooms and at night, my cousin-brother lifted me up. They wanted to take me to a doctor but I was refusing. I was very scared that the policemen were going to get hold of me and therefore I decided to sleep with the intention that I would go to the doctor the following morning. I went to Dr Mzimba who was very helpful. He did not even accept the examination fee from us and he kept on helping me and he gave me a medical certificate so that I could not go to work. Every Saturday I would go to him for treatment and he would say all these pellets were going to simply come out on their own. MS GOBODO Could you explain to us, I would like to tell this gathering that I did see the marks where there were these pellets just before you came here. There are several other things that I noted. Firstly, is that you were scared to go and consult a doctor because that was going to put you into some disadvantage to be arrested by the police, so you had to bear the pain because you were frightened? MRS MHLAWULI Yes, I was frightened because the police were aware that they had shot me and so they would get hold of me and throw me into jail. MS GOBODO What was actually happening to the people if they were found injured. What did the police do to the people? MRS MHLAWULI They would take them to jail instead of taking them to hospital and then you would be kept there in jail and perhaps by chance you would be taken to the hospital and some people would even die there. If you were discharged from hospital you would be taken back to jail, that is why I opted to go to Dr Mzimba. MS GOBODO The second thing you mentioned was that you opted not to tell your problem at work. You had to give an excuse that you were suffering from flu, as you were supported by Dr Mzimba. Is it you who made this request to the doctor? MRS MHLAWULI Yes, because I was frightened that at work they would even expel me. MS GOBODO How were you working at work? MRS MHLAWULI I was working very badly because I was limping and then the matron asked me one day "I heard that you have a wound, you have been shot", and I denied, but what gave me away was that I was limping on both legs, but fortunately they did not actually spot me. I then decided to leave work. I couldn't even stand, I couldn't walk, I had to relax and really, I was liable to be dismissed at work. MS GOBODO I understand we are talking about you, but Thobile's name has been mentioned, I would ask you to tell us what happened to Thobile? MRS MHLAWULI Thobile was buried very painfully because on that they many people were being arrested and there was a restriction that the people at the funeral should not exceed 100 in number. Some children were being beaten with sjamboks and bats, it was just policemen all over when Thobile was being buried. MS GOBODO So, Thobile's funeral was a huge funeral? MRS MHLAWULI Yes, but we couldn't go to the funeral because people were turned back. Some were arrested, some were beaten up, it was just very serious. We still remember, we remember some of the people died, they were shot at the times of the funerals. We remember all those incidents. MS GOBODO What is the name of Thobile's mother? MRS MHLAWULI She is Nomsindo Klaas. MS GOBODO How many children did she have? MRS MHLAWULI She had one child, Thobile. MS GOBODO So, the only child was killed? MRS MHLAWULI Yes. MS GOBODO So now when they asked for Thobile's reference book, was he dead or was he still alive? MRS MHLAWULI No. He was dead, because we heard of it in the morning that Thobile had died. They asked for his identity document only because they wanted to make sure that it was him who had died. MS GOBODO I am now going to ask you the last question and then hand you over to other member. What are your wishes now that you have appeared before this Commission. MRS MHLAWULI I really can't tell, but I would say, if I were to get some pension because I can never be able to work. MS GOBODO Was there any court case opened about what happened to you? MRS MHLAWULI No. There wasn't. MS GOBODO You just decided to sit because you were scared? MRS MHLAWULI Yes, I was. Even consulting doctors, I have never been since that time I last consulted Dr Mzimba and I went to hospital once and I explained what had happened to me and I was frightened, even then. MS GOBODO Can Thobile's mother give evidence about your shooting? MRS MHLAWULI Yes, she can. MS GOBODO Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Thank you very much Pumla. Are there any questions? Mrs Mhlawuli we thank you for your story as presented before this Commission and we promise that we are going to make a follow up like all other incidents. If there are any other things we would like to be clear about, we are going to call you, for now everything is clear. We thank you.