hrvtrans HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATIONS, SUBMISSIONS QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS 1996-08-26 UITENHAGE 1 LULAMILE BASIE PETER EC /96 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=56029&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/hrvtrans/uiten/peter.htm CHAIRPERSON Mr Chairman let me ask that they should give a list of people who are present and those who are absent. I am now going to ask Lulamile to take an oath. Could you please rise? LULAMILE BASIE PETER (Sworn duly states). CHAIRPERSON We welcome you Mr Lulamile Peter to this Commission. We are therefore going to hand you over to Mr Ntsikelelo Sandi who is going to question you on behalf of this Commission. MR SANDI I must thank you Mr Peter and greet you all the same. Firstly, I would like to ascertain the following. Do you live in 236 Modise Street, Despatch? MR PETER Yes. MR SANDI You are now appearing before this Commission about your shooting in 1985. MR PETER Yes, it is like that. MR SANDI Could you briefly explain how the situation was at Despatch on the day you were shot? What was actually happening in your locality and then you could continue therefore tell us exactly about how you were shot in 1985. MR PETER In 1985 there were riots, we were young and we were playing at school, then there was a truck that came and it was loaded with . . . with a . . . . and there were some people underneath, then whilst we were playing we just heard some people shooting at us. MR SANDI Could you please raise your voice so that everybody could hear. MR PETER Do you want me to start afresh? MR SANDI Just continue from where you left off. Don't start from the beginning. MR PETER Underneath the branches there were some whites hiding and they shot us on our way from school and that was in Forest Street. I then ran away trying to escape and went into a certain house where they hid me. MR SANDI Are there others who were shot by these very policemen were hiding under branches? MR PETER Yes. there is (inaudible) . . . . father and another one. MR SANDI Now, you say the people who shot at you were police? MR PETER Yes, they were. What could have been the reason for these policemen to hide under branches and then come out when they see you and they shoot at you? MR PETER It is because they thought that we were going to burn their truck, because we were a group and yet we were coming from school. MR SANDI Did you get any treatment from hospital after you were injured? MR PETER Yes, I was sent to Livingstone Hospital. That is were I was given treatment. MR SANDI Were you arrested? Why were you arrested? MR PETER They didn't state, they just took me from Livingstone Hospital in my uniform and they took me to jail. MR SANDI What was the accusation? Did the Court find you guilty. MR PETER Yes, they found me guilty, but they did not explain what for. MR SANDI Did you perhaps have any lawyer? MR PETER Yes, I had the lawyer by the name of Van Rijh. MR SANDI Do you still remember the name? MR PETER Yes, the name is Van Rijh. MR SANDI Is that all you have to say to us? MR PETER I was arrested from hospital and locked in the jail in Despatch and I was still in the nightwear and the following day I was taken to Church Street in Uitenhage and I was called by a white detective whose name I don't remember and he called me into an office and he wanted to take down a statement. I told him I did not have one, he clapped me and I fell and then the following day my parents organised a lawyer for me. MR SANDI When all these things happened, can you recall how old you were? MR PETER Yes, I was 15 years old. MR SANDI Am I making a mistake to think that even the people you were playing with were round about that age? MR PETER Yes, my friend was exactly 15 years old, but I can't tell how old the others were. MR SANDI What would be your request to this Commission, Mr Peter? MR PETER My request is that I should get medical treatment because the operation I had gives trouble. MR SANDI Is that all? MR PETER Yes. MR SANDI Thank you Mr Peter. Thank you Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Again, the questions - Ms Pumela Gobodo. MS GOBODO Thank you Mr Chairman. I want to have a full picture of what was happening on the day. You say the police van came driving in front of the school at the time you were going out of the school? MR PETER Yes. MS GOBODO You were going out of school and then as you were going out these white policemen just came out of this truck. MR PETER Yes, this reminds me of that event called "Trojan Horse" in Cape Town, which happened exactly the very same way in this very evil way it happened where you find that policemen entice children because they wanted to make the victims very young children - under the age of 15 and this makes me shudder. MS GOBODO Are there any other people who died amongst those who were with you? MR PETER Yes, there were. MS GOBODO How many were there? MR PETER There were about four, I think. MR GOBODO So, those policemen who did this like the "Trojan Horse" who killed four, who were they? MR PETER They were the South African Police because they were dressed in a blue uniform like these police present here. MS GOBODO Were they white policemen? MR PETER Yes, they were white and then one coloured policeman. MS GOBODO Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Before I hand over to Denzil Potgieter, I would like to know do you perhaps have the names of those people who died. MR PETER I can't recall the three, but I know one of then was Tsolisi Nglale. CHAIRPERSON Could you slowly say the name once more? MR PETER Tsolisi Nglale is the name. The surname is Nglale. CHAIRPERSON So, is it the one who is going to give testimony No. 10. MR PETER Yes. CHAIRPERSON These other three you cannot recall the names. MR PETER No. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Over to Denzil Potgieter. MR POTGIETER Thank you Chairperson. Lulamile, I agree with my colleague, Pumela, that it is quite incredible the similarity between this incident and an incident that happened in the Western Cape. Now, if I understand this correctly this was really a Municipal truck, it appeared to be a Municipal truck with a load of trees and some other things on the back? MR GABODI Yes, it is like that. MR POTGIETER And this was at a time when vehicles like that would be stopped in the area and often attacked? MR PETER Our street is next to our school. It is a street that the cars use. MR POTGIETER So, it would have been known at that stage if you sent a truck like that into that area, it is likely to be attacked? MR PETER Yes, it is like that. MR POTGIETER And, the driver of the truck, when the truck was stopped, did he stop immediately? He didn't try to drive off? MR PETER He stopped immediately and when he alighted from the truck he had a 9mm gun and he shot in the air. MR POTGIETER So it's as if he was trying to attract attention. He got out with the gun and started firing shots. MR PETER Yes. MR POTGIETER Now, was this truck ever attacked, did anybody ever do anything to the truck? MR PETER Nothing was done to the truck. MR POTGIETER And if I understand it correctly, soon after the driver got out and fired shots, police who were hiding at the back, underneath the trees and ostensible load of the truck just got up and started firing shots? MR PETER Yes, it is like that. MR POTGIETER Was there ever any charges laid against these police who were involved in this incident? MR PETER I can't remember. MR POTGIETER But you have never been called to Court to give evidence against these police that were shooting? MR PETER I did go to Court. MR POTGIETER But instead, you were charged and you were accused of having committed public violence? MR PETER Yes, a charge was laid on me. MR POTGIETER But there was no charge laid against the police who were shooting? MR PETER No. There were no charges laid against the police otherwise I would be aware of it. MR POTGIETER Thank you very much. CHAIRPERSON Mntukanti Mbolekwa is going to give evidence, was he there on the day. MR PETER Yes, he was. CHAIRPERSON We reverse our earlier decision and ask, Mntukanti Mbolekwa and Msokoli Nqandu to take the stand. That is after tea and that we do not ask Lulamile Peter to stand down at this stage. The case seems to be very closely related and I think we want to get to the bottom of some of the events that took place at the time. PANEL MEMBER We agreed. CHAIRPERSON We are then going to ask that you remain there on the stands, you come back after tea time and you sit where you are and then we ask Mntukanti Mbolekwa and Msokoli Nqandu Mnandi to join you so that we look into this case. (Adjourn Tea Break) CHAIRPERSON Could you please stand Mr Mbolekwa. MNTUKANTI MBOLEKWA (Sworn duly states) CHAIRPERSON Please rise Mr Nqandu. MSOKOLI NQANDU (Sworn duly states) CHAIRPERSON Sir, do you have to be sworn in as well? HENRY SALJE (Sworn duly states) CHAIRPERSON Before we proceed we would like to ask Mr Ntsikelelo Sandi to tell us briefly about Mr Salje. MR SANDI Mr Henry Salje's evidence is that the police who shot at these children, as the previous witness stated, that he has seen them coming from where they had loaded these branches and proceeded to conceal themselves with these branches. CHAIRPERSON Mr Henry Salje, before we adjourned for tea we were listening to the evidence of Lulamile Basie Peter and while we were listening to his story, we asked him not to leave the witness stand but that we should call to the stand Mntukanti Mbolekwa and Msokoli Nqandu. Since we noticed that the story that we were hearing from Lulamile Peter was corroborative of the stories told by the two witnesses we have just called. Now we will proceed and hear the evidence of Mntukanti Mbolekwa and also the evidence of Msokoli Nqandu and we will ask Mr Sandi to help us because Mr Henry Salje will also give supporting evidence. We thank you also for coming forward and we will hand over to Mr Sandi who will put questions to you on behalf of the Commission. Thank you very much. MR SANDI Thank you Mr Chairperson. We would like to start with Mr Mbolekwa. Sir, you also reside at Despatch, is that correct? MR MBOLEKWA Yes. MR SANDI The story that you are going to tell about your shooting is about the police that were shooting at school children as stated by the previous witness, Mr Peter. It was something that happened to you there at Despatch. Is that correct? MR MBOLEKWA Yes. MR SANDI According to the statement it was on a Thursday on the 18th April 1985 and when looking at your statement you say that you were sitting outside in the sun. Can you just tell us from there, what happened? MR MBOLEKWA Yes. I was sitting outside basking in the sun when I saw this lorry. A green lorry appeared near the school and when it got near our blocks, it stopped and these branches, first you only saw branches and then the next thing people appeared from amongst these branches with their arms and they started firing. MR SANDI Do you mean that they started shooting? MR MBOLEKWA Yes, they shot. MR SANDI Who did they shoot at? MR MBOLEKWA They shot at everyone around. MR SANDI They struck you while shooting? MR MBOLEKWA Yes, they struck me while they were shooting. They even followed me. I was crawling to the other side. MR SANDI Where did they strike you, where on your body did they strike you? MR MBOLEKWA They struck me here. MR SANDI You say that they followed you into your house. You went around crawling into your house. MR MBOLEKWA They followed me, even while I was crawling. MR SANDI Did they come closer to you while you were crawling. Did these policemen come closer to you? MR MBOLEKWA No, they stood in the street. MR SANDI Did they not drag you out? MR MBOLEKWA They took me when I was already in the house and they dragged me out into the street. MR SANDI While they were dragging you out into the street, were they saying anything to you? MR MBOLEKWA What do you mean? MR SANDI Were they saying anything to you verbally? MR MBOLEKWA No, they did not say anything, they just said "sit here and wait for an ambulance". MR SANDI Did you go to hospital for the shots that you received? MR MBOLEKWA Yes, an ambulance arrived at about sunset and took me to the hospital. MR SANDI In your statement you say that there are some pellets still lodged in your chest? Are they still there? MR MBOLEKWA Yes, they are. MR SANDI What reason did the doctors give you for not being able to remove them? MR MBOLEKWA I didn't ask them anything, they just said "you are being discharged today, go" and I also just left. MR SANDI Were these the doctors that told you that these pellets were lodged in your chest? MR MBOLEKWA I feel them when I touch my body, they form lumps. MR SANDI Sir, is that all you would like to tell us in connection with what happened to you on that day? MR MBOLEKWA From what I know? MR SANDI No, is that all that you would like to say about what happened to you. MR MBOLEKWA Yes, there is nothing else. MR SANDI I am talking about what you are telling us today, is there anything else that you would like to add to that? MR MBOLEKWA All else that I would like to say is that I would like help because I am not well anymore because ever since I have not been the same. MR SANDI In your statement you say that your health has deteriorated due to that injury? MR MBOLEKWA Yes. MR SANDI Can you please tell us more about the state of your health, what else can you tell us about your state of health? MR MBOLEKWA There is nothing else that I would like to add. MR SANDI Do you have any request that you would like to place before this Commission? MR MBOLEKWA Yes, I would like to ask the Commission that when this happens to me, when the pain starts seizing me, it seizes me in such a way that I can just fall to the ground. MR SANDI Thank you very much Mr Mbolekwa. Let us now go to Mr Nqandu. Sir, Mr Nqandu, your child was also shot on this day there? MR NQANDU Yes, Sir. MR SANDI How did you receive these tidings? MR NQANDU I was from work, Sir, and when I arrived at the location I saw that there was something happening there. I then proceeded to go home and when I passed the Methodist Church I saw that there were people lying there near the school and there was this Municipality lorry somewhere near there. I then proceeded to go home and when I got there my wife was there and I asked her "why are you sitting here" and she said, no, you go, I think our children have been shot. I then went to this place where the children had been shot. We wanted to go there but the police wouldn't allow us to go near and said that we can't see these children. While we were standing around there and ambulance arrived and took them and we followed the ambulance to the hospital. We got to the hospital, it was myself and another guy by the name of Ntuti, in his car. When we got to the hospital the police would not allow us to come near them and they wanted to know "is this your child?" and I said "yes", and they said "no, you may not see them". They wouldn't even let us go near them and Ntuti, "Goefie, do you know him, do you know me?" and he said "Yes, I know you, you are Ntuti", and we said well OK, we see you, you are here. The policemen said "there is nothing else here for you, you just leave", and we said "No, we can't leave, we would like to see what is going to happen to our child". It was not as if he was unconscious or anything, he was looking at us. We were told to go home, we would be able to come and see him the following day. The following day we woke up and I went to work and while I was at work, my wife phoned to say that she had received a call and that it had seems as if that child had passed away. I asked permission from my work and we went to the hospital. When we got there we were told that he had passed away and I wanted one question and I wanted to know why he had passed away because when we saw him the previous day, when we were there the previous day, he was still alive and then we were told that he had been shot in his head. We said OK and we left, we went home. When we got home, we were told that we should go to the mortuary. We then went and we found all these corpses stacked on top of each other in a corner and we were told to identify which one was our family. We identified him. They were just placed there on top of each other, a lot of them and we were told that a post mortem was going to be conducted and we would hear in due course when we could have him. We decided that we should consult with the Undertakers and they are the ones that then proceeded to do things for us. MR SANDI Were you informed when the post mortem was going to be conducted? MR NQANDU Yes, we were. MR SANDI What were the findings of the post mortem? MR NQANDU They did not want to say anything to us after conducting the post mortem. When we asked this white man, he said that the police will tell us. MR SANDI Do you know the name of the doctor who conducted the post mortem? MR NQANDU No. I don't know that doctor. MR SANDI In your statement, Mr Nqandu, you say that the police came to your house begging you to lay a charge, in other words, lay a charge against somebody? MR NQANDU That's right. MR SANDI But you didn't agree? MR NQANDU No. I did not. MR SANDI Did you have any reasons why you did not want to lay a charge? MR NQANDU Yes, it is because I didn't shoot my child. They shot my child and I felt that they should be opening a case, because our children were shot and we didn't even know why. MR SANDI Is that all you would like to say Mr Nqandu before we go to Mr Salje? MR NQANDU No Sir. That is not all. Our hearts are very sore about the deaths of our children. Our children didn't do anything, they were at school when they were shot. We are heartbroken. My wife would not even be able to sit here in front and tell you the way she was heartbroken. MR SANDI Do you mean to tell us Mr Nqandu that your request to the Commission - what is your request? MR NQANDU We would like and investigation into this matter so that we can know exactly how our children were killed because we don't know the details. MR SANDI Referring to your statement, you say that one of your requests from the Commission is that there be a tombstone. Do you have any reason for lodging that request? MR NQANDU Yes Sir. Because if help is available, I would like that. MR SANDI Thank you Mr Nqandu. Would you like me to go over to Mr Salje now? MR NQANDU Yes Sir. MR SANDI Good day to you Mr Salje. MR SALJE Good day, Sir. MR SANDI When we spoke during the tea break, you said that you had information about where the police came from, where they had concealed themselves with these branches and come into the location. Could you Mr Salje please take over from there and tell us what you say prior to the police coming into the location? MR SALJE Yes Sir. I can give you the complete picture but I am going to apologise because about where I saw the branches being loaded. I was coming from Sawmills where I was working, near the bridge, on my way home and there is that crossing facing Despatch and . . . . (inaudible) call that near the location. I was at the stop street there waiting for a bus to go home and I think it was about the 18th April, it was on a Thursday, in 1985. While standing there waiting for a bus, a lorry appeared from the direction of Uitenhage, having loaded branches and when they got to the training school, where they learnt to shoot, it stopped on the tar road near the gate and things were bad at the time. This lorry stopped and a hippo appeared from the direction of the location and entered into the training camp where they learned to shoot and stopped near a big tree. I don't know what kind of tree it was. It was obvious that they were going to do something in the location, because the lorry parked behind the tree. Two policemen alighted from the hippo, the others remained in the hippo and they got under the branches in this truck and I realised that these boys are up to something. There is definitely something that these boys are up to. They planned something about us. MR SANDI What time was it, was it in the morning? MR SALJE I come out of work at 5 'o clock, by 6 o'clock I am at home. So, it was still day, be that as it may, I realised that these policemen were up to something, they wanted to do something with us there at Despatch. Since there was no bus, I stopped a car. You must remember it cost me 30c to get home, but I paid somebody R2 to take me home, to save our children from the lions. Fair enough, God had sent a car that took me, but this man spoke with a Zulu accent and took me home and I was limping, but I ran to tell our children that they must watch out for this Blue Municipality lorry with branches over, and they mustn't dare go near that truck. I ran past No. 6 and No. 5 to my house at No. 4, and I put my bag on the table and as I walked out, the shots rang out and they started shooting. The Boers shot. They had stopped near the school, near Mr Mbolekwa's house. It appears that a lot of other people were injured as well. That lorry had stopped by that time and the police were shooting and that is all I want to say. MR SANDI The Mr Mbolekwa you are referring to, is it the man that gave evidence here? MR SALJE Yes. MR SANDI Thank you very much Mr Salje. I would like to hand over to you Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Revd. Mxundu. REVD. XUNDU Thank you Mr Chairperson. Did you know any of these policemen? MR SALJE No, I did not know any of them, because when they got to this training school, this range, they were wearing blue clothes, like the policemen present here today. White policemen, there were no black policemen amongst them. REVD. XUNDU Thank you very much Sir. CHAIRPERSON Mr Denzil Potgieter. MR POTGIETER Thank you Mr Chairperson. Mr Nqandu, perhaps I can just get one or two items of information from you. I just want to know Mr Nqandu, how old was your son when he died? MR NQANDU He was approximately 16 years old. MR POTGIETER Now, the police tried to get you to make a case and you explained to us what your attitude was, but were you ever called to Court in connection with the death of your son. There is a procedure that we call an inquest. Do you know anything about that perhaps? MR NQANDU Yes, they had called me and I said I am not going to Court because I didn't shoot my child. MR POTGIETER To which court did they call you, where did they want you to come to? MR NQANDU The one here close by. MR POTGIETER Here in Uitenhage? MR NQANDU Yes. MR POTGIETER Was it soon after the incident when your son was killed. Can you perhaps still remember roughly when you were called to come to court? MR NQANDU I was called on a Tuesday of the following week. I can't remember what the date was. MR POTGIETER Did you hear afterwards what happened to the case, whether anybody was held liable for the death of your son, for example? MR NQANDU No, I did not hear anything. MR POTGIETER Would you like us to follow that up and find out what happened to that particular case? MR NQANDU I would appreciate that. MR POTGIETER Then, just one other issue. The police were stopping you from seeing your son at the hospital, when your son was still alive. What was the attitude of the hospital, the doctors there, were they just allowing the police to prevent people from seeing their family - what was their attitude? MR NQANDU There weren't any police where he was, I mean there were no doctors, there were only policemen where he was. MR POTGIETER Did you raise this with anybody from the hospital, any of the officials from the hospital to try and see your son, or did you just accept when the police refused? MR NQANDU The policemen did not even want us to speak to anybody there, they did not allow us at all. MR POTGIETER How did you feel about that, look, your son was still alive at that stage when you tried to see him and the next time you were told that he was dead? MR NQANDU It was very painful for me, up to this day, I still mourn for him because he could possibly have been helping me today. MR POTGIETER Thank you very much. MR NQANDU Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Ms Pumla Gobodo. MS GOBODO Thank you Mr Chairperson. Mr Salje, I am going to put a question to you, because you are the one that saw this truck and where it came from. I would like some clarity on exactly where these people came from. I would like to ask you Sir, since you saw this truck stopping, loading policemen, are these policemen from the Municipality or were they policemen wearing the common uniform. These are the government policemen wearing blue clothes. Since you say they were at the shooting range where they learnt to shoot, was this a training range for policemen or soldiers? MR SALJE I would not be able to differentiate, I would just say that it was their shooting range, although I don't know if it was for soldiers or policemen, I just know that it was their shooting range. MS GOBODO You say it was on your way out as you go to Despatch? MR SALJE Yes, it is near the road to Kleinskool and Despatch. It is the camp in the middle there. MS GOBODO When the other man spoke, he mentioned that it was on the 18th of this day. How come you can remember it so well. Why is it that you can remember this day so well. MR SALJE The reason that I can remember this day is because it was on a Thursday. MS GOBODO Is that why you still remember it so clearly? Did you pay any attention to the registration of the vehicle? MR SALJE No, I did not pay any attention to the registration number, but I saw that it was painted blue. MS GOBODO Thank you very much, Sir. CHAIRPERSON Ms Yolisa Maya. MS MAYA Thank you Mr Chairperson. Mr Nqandu, I would like to put one question to you. In the statements before us, in your statement particularly, you say that this incident took place on the 18th of January 1986, but the others say that it happened on the 18th April 1985. I would just like to know from you if this is a mistake by the person that took down the statement or did these things happen at two different dates? MR NQANDU No, it was my mistake because I said that I remember that it was the 18th, but I wasn't sure about which month it was. MS MAYA Thank you very much Sir. CHAIRPERSON Mr Nqandu, in your statement, on the first page of your statement, you say that at this time there was unrest and conflict between the police and the members of the community. At the time of this incident, there was conflict between the community and the police, could you please just elaborate on that conflict? MR NQANDU I should say that there was conflict, because things were bad, that is why I put it as there having being conflict. CHAIRPERSON It is very important for us as the Commission to be able to understand this very clearly. We have established that in the community four people died. MR NQANDU Yes, that is correct. CHAIRPERSON How many policemen died? MR NQANDU I never heard of any policemen passing away. CHAIRPERSON How many of them were injured in this conflict? MR NQANDU None. CHAIRPERSON Could we then call it conflict, could we call that conflict. MR NQANDU Sir, that is why I said that I wasn't sure whether I was using the correct word, but things were bad. Things were very tense at the time. That is why I referred to it as conflict. CHAIRPERSON Thank you very much Sir. My second question is - it is very important for me to put this question to you because when we investigate this matter, it has to be clear that these people went there to go and attack these students and lure them to this truck and after luring them to the truck, they would shoot them - who was fighting between students and them, so if you statement speaks about conflict, it sketches a picture of fighting between the two sides, but now that you have put it that way, it seems as though the students were lured to this truck and the police then just appeared from underneath these branches and shot at them. I would just like clarity on the second issue. I am first going to put it in English. You say, the youth would vandalise white people's property and sometimes loot them. On this day, did these students do anything that caused damage to the property of the white people, when they came from school, on the way to where they were injured? MR NQANDU The children were in the school yard. They were coming out of the school yard on their way home. I don't know of anything else that they had done. CHAIRPERSON Did they burn anything on their way from school to where they were injured? MR NQANDU No, nothing had been burnt. CHAIRPERSON So, these students were coming from school when they met up with the police who shot at them and there was no conflict between them, there was nothing that had been burnt and there was nothing that had been damaged. Do I understand you correctly in that sense? MR NQANDU Yes, that is it. I really don't know of them having burnt anything, because the children came from school. As I said previously, I had come from work and I did not know of anything that the children had done. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Ms Maya has suggested that I put this question to Mr Peter. MS MAYA Lulamile Peter, you are going to tell us, because it is very important for the sake of clarity to put this question to you. We would like to know firstly, as Commission, if, what time you came from school when this incident occurred? MR PETER We came out of school at 2.30pm and we had asked our principal for permission to play on the school grounds. He granted us permission and we play, and after we had played and we went home, and it was on our way home that we met up with this truck. MS MAYA Was this a students meeting? MR PETER It was not a meeting, we asked the principal for the school grounds, to play. MS MAYA Thank you very much, I didn't hear you. So when this incident occurred, you had come from the school grounds where you had played and on your way home, what time was it approximately? MR PETER It was at approximately 5.00pm. MS MAYA When you got to this truck with these branches, were you just walking or had you done something? MR PETER No, we were just walking home. There was nothing that we could have done to that truck because we were from school. MS MAYA In your written statements, unless the person taking your statement, made a mistake, it says that the students got out of the premises and stopped the truck. Did you do that? MR PETER Yes, there were people, apart from school children that had stopped the truck. MS MAYA And thereafter, did the policemen just appear from amongst these branches? MR PETER Yes. MS MAYA What do you think the intentions were for them having concealed themselves with these branches? MR PETER I think that they were camouflaging themselves from the people. MS MAYA Did you know any of these policemen? MR PETER No. CHAIRPERSON Sir, we thank you, you too Peter or Lulamile for the story that you have come and shared with us as the Commission and as my colleagues said, my two colleagues from Cape Town have stated, this incident is very similar to one that took place in Cape Town known as the "Trojan Horse Killing". They were fortunate in the sense that their story was covered by the media, but yours, I cannot recall at any stage that your story received any publicity to expose the dirty tricks of the police. This always happens that in bigger town, such as they one where they come from. These things are newsworthy, but when it happens in smaller places they are not, they are not worthy of making news. We are going to try our best as the Commission to follow up on your story and the questions that I have put to you which made it seem as if you were in a court of law, putting you under cross-examination are so that we can follow up on your story. It is important for us to know what happened because the police were known - they are supposed to know which policemen were driving that truck that day and the Municipality should have records of who was driving the truck. The people in charge of the Municipality at the time and the police at the time if they had done their jobs correctly should know who went out in that truck that day, so they should have records of that shooting incident and we as the Commission will investigate this because of the four children that were killed and also because of the injury of you sir. We will investigate and try and establish the truth so that you can come to terms with it. We thank you and promise that if there is anything else, any other information that we need, that we will get back to you. Thank you very much.