hrvtrans HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATIONS, SUBMISSIONS QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS 1996-10-03 VENDA 1 NESWISWI E. SHONISANI https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=56113&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/hrvtrans/venda/shonisan.htm MR LYSTER: Good morning Ms Neswiswi, I apologise, Neswiswi. We welcome you here today. Can you hear me through the earphones, can you understand me? MS SHONISANI Yes, I can hear you. MR LYSTER Can you stand to take the oath please. NESWISWI E. SHONISANI (sworn states) MR LYSTER Ms Neswiswi, you have come here today from the Maconde area and you have come to tell the Commission about the experiences of your brother, Jonah Mbengeni Ravele, is that correct? Is that right? MS SHONISANI Yes, it is true. MR LYSTER Just to confirm something briefly about you and your family. You are a married women, you have six children and you are from the Maconde area, is that right? MS SHONISANI Yes, it is true. MR LYSTER Are you working at this time? MS SHONISANI No, I am not working. MR LYSTER Is he still alive and if he is, is he working? MS SHONISANI Yes, he is around and he is not working. MR LYSTER Now, you've come to tell us about your brother, is that right? What are your brother's full names? MS SHONISANI Jonah Mbengeni Ravele. MR LYSTER Jonah Mbengeni Ravele? Where is he today? MS SHONISANI He is working, he is right in Pretoria. VENDA HEARING TRC/NORTH WEST 2 NE SHONISANI MR LYSTER Oh, you are telling his story on his behalf. Now, if you could just tell us the story from, I think it was approximately 1980 when he was first detained by the police. Could you tell us the story from there? MS SHONISANI Yes, I can. In 1980 December, my brother was taken by the CID car and then they came into our home at our home there. They found him, he was present. They took him, they go with him and then he went back. The CID goes and he returned back. After a short time, they returned back and then they came back home and then they took my brother and go with him. When they have gone with him, they come back again and then they told us that they have arrested him. It is then that they were saying that he was in possession of illegal firearms. It is then that they arrested him and then it is true, he is having it and then he showed them the gun. It is then that they took him and he was tortured. They used to tie him by chains. One day he was handcuffed. One day when he was coming back home, he used to come back wearing something which you cannot see his face. When coming back home, trying to see what they were doing with him, even at his home, they did not allow us and chased us like dogs and saying they don't want to see anybody here. And he was forced to have other guns, but in fact he was not having other guns. They used to dig his - he was forced to dig his house, digging his house and he was kicked and he was hurt. They never allowed us to go near him. Go with him one VENDA HEARING TRC/NORTH WEST 3 NE SHONISANI day, one day they took him to the mountain and he was forced to admit false charges because he was feeling the pain. It is then that he happened to admit something which he did not know and truly, he knew nothing, but he just admitted because he was feeling the pains. In 1980 here in the police station he was beaten. He once told me that the person who used to beat him, is Mr Ramoswana and a Mr Ramaliqela. He was beaten. In 1980, at eight o'clock they used to go and beat him. From there, they came back home again. There were many with many vans and then they surrounded the whole house. When we tried to go near them, we were not allowed and he was forced to dig the house knowing nothing. It is then that when his case was opened and I was not knowing what to do, then I tried to find a lawyer for him. We were told that if we find a lawyer, we are all going to be arrested. It is then that a lawyer was found and then the lawyers were there and they were treating the case on his behalf. Then that was how it ended. From then we were called again by the very same CID's. They sent us to some other offices where there are some CID's. There was a big "trommel", tramped in with, there were a lot of old jackets, big ones. They wanted us to believe and say we had to confirm that it belonged to my brother. And we said, we never knew anything. The CID took the very same "trommel" and dug a whole in the garden so that the family members will say it belonged to them. He suffered a great deal out of what they did to him. He is now not present. On working, he was complaining of VENDA HEARING TRC/NORTH WEST 4 NE SHONISANI pains all over the body, they way they kicked him. He suffered a great deal. Again we thank God that we will have discovered that they will take him to prison and could be acquitted. The policemen of that time were very cruel. Subsequently he was charged for five years and then he stayed five years in prison. After that period expired, then he came back. MR LYSTER Ms Neswiswi, when you say the CID, where were they from? Where were those police from? MS SHONISANI They came from Sebatsa police station. MR LYSTER You said Ramoswana and ...? MS SHONISANI Ramoswana is the one who did malicious damage to my brother. Ramaliqela as well. MR LYSTER Now you said he spent five years in jail. What was he charged with, do you remember? MS SHONISANI For illegally possessing the firearm. MR LYSTER ... in your statement that he was brutally beaten and interrogated severely. Did he tell you in what manner he was beaten? Did he tell you the details as to how they assaulted him, whether they tortured him. Can you give us some details of that? MS SHONISANI Indeed. I did explain that they really tortured him. They used to beat him, taking him to the mountain where they would tie him so that he shall produce other evidence. MR LYSTER What you are telling us is information which your brother has told you, is your brother able to confirm this? Has he made a statement at any stage to the Truth Commission and if not, would we be able to contact him in Pretoria and to get him to confirm what you have said? VENDA HEARING TRC/NORTH WEST 5 NE SHONISANI MS SHONISANI Yes, you can do so. It is true. MR LYSTER Is he working there? MS SHONISANI Yes, indeed. I don't have a physical address, but the wife knows. MR LYSTER You don't? MS SHONISANI No. MR LYSTER You can give that information to the briefers or we can get it from you. And you said that he was as a result of this detention, assaults, you said that he was like a useless person today. How has it affected him? MS SHONISANI He is just, you know, in cloudy days, he feels terrible pains because after he suffered, the police took him to the own respective hospital. MR LYSTER You said he was like a useless person. How has his behaviour or his life been affected, do you know? MS SHONISANI He is not like before. Because before, initially, he is damaged now. MR LYSTER Sorry, Mrs Neswiswi, do you - you said that he was picked up because he was suspected of having an unlicensed or unlawful weapon and in fact they did find one. What - was he a member of any organisation at the time, do you remember? Was he working at that stage in 1980, was he schooling, what was he doing? MS SHONISANI He was working. MR LYSTER In this area? MS SHONISANI Yes, (indistinct) MR LYSTER Any organisation that you remember? MS SHONISANI Not that I know of. MR LYSTER I don't have any further questions at this time. I'll hand back to Mr Ally now, thank you. MR ALLY Thank you. Tom? VENDA HEARING TRC/NORTH WEST 6 NE SHONISANI MR MANTHATA Elizabeth, you maintain that he used to assist the MK cadres, do you perhaps remember the name of just one of those people he assisted? MS SHONISANI I don't remember vividly. MR MANTHATA But you had seen one or two who used to move along with him, coming perhaps in and out of the family? MS SHONISANI Yes. MR MANTHATA And you go on to say he was innocent. Now he resisted the torture, he couldn't tell them what was on because he was innocent. What do you actually mean? MS SHONISANI I said, are you saying I said he resisted torture? MR MANTHATA I thought I heard you say that - I may be mistaken. MS SHONISANI I said they were torturing him severely. Yes, he was innocent. MR MANTHATA Did you understand the motive or the work that the MK cadres wanted to do? MS SHONISANI Yes. MR MANTHATA Shortly, what did they say they even for, that is they had come in for? MS SHONISANI Yes, MK wanted to start with peace in the land, because then there was no peace. MR MANTHATA What would you say to a person who says the MK cadres were about to kill people who were supporting Apartheid at that time? MS SHONISANI I will say they never intended killing, they wanted to prevent that. MR MANTHATA You instructed a lawyer, so you said, can you still remember the name of the lawyer? MS SHONISANI Yes, I do remember - Glove. VENDA HEARING TRC/NORTH WEST 7 NE SHONISANI MR MANTHATA Glove? Did you say Glove? MS SHONISANI Yes. MR MANTHATA Presently do you know anything about the children of your brother, are they at school, what are they doing? MS SHONISANI They are schooling. The other one is in standard 10, the elderly one. MR MANTHATA That is here in Venda? MS SHONISANI Yes. MR MANTHATA If I understand you well Elizabeth, you talk for the family? That is on behalf of your brother, perhaps even on behalf of the family, am I correct? MS SHONISANI Yes, indeed. MR MANTHATA How does your family or what is the thinking within the family, about those people who had treated your brother the way they did? MS SHONISANI I am not clear. MR MANTHATA I want to say what, as a family, do you think about those people who arrested, detained and even tortured your brother? MS SHONISANI We regard them as ordinary people, because we can't hold any grudges, because they seemed not to know what they were doing then. MR MANTHATA So in short, you are no longer scared of them? MS SHONISANI No, I am not fearful of them. I do grieve them - Ramoswana and Ramaliqela alike. MR MANTHATA Thank you Elizabeth. No further questions. MR ALLY Thank you Elizabeth. Just before you go - sorry, just before you go - just two questions I want to ask you. The first is about your brother on whose behalf you are VENDA HEARING TRC/NORTH WEST 8 NE SHONISANI speaking. In your statement you say that he once told me that on the day that they took him to the mountain they beat him, they tied him on the tree and the made a fire under the tree to burn his private parts. And you said that your brother today is useless, it was the word that you used. Were you referring to the kind of torture that he experienced - is there a connection between the burning of his private parts and what you were saying about his life presently? MS SHONISANI No, he only told me that they used to take him to the mountain, tying him and putting fire and trying to torture him. MR ALLY Elizabeth, I am going to ask you if you could please, we will try to contact your brother as well, but if you could also tell him to come to the Commission and to make a statement. And then finally you're speaking about your brother - but what we would like to know is whether anything happened to you as the sister? Were you ever harassed because of the activities that your brother was accused of being involved in? MS SHONISANI I am not clear? MR ALLY Did the police or the security police ever harass you or threaten you? Did you ever experience anything bad because of the fact that your brother was accused of all of these activities? MS SHONISANI No. MR ALLY Once again, thanks very much for coming.