hrvtrans HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATIONS, SUBMISSIONS QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS 1996-10-03 VENDA 1 SOPHIA N. TSHIVHASE https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=56116&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/hrvtrans/venda/tshivhas.htm MR ALLY: Sophia, welcome and thank you for coming. Are you following the translation okay, can you hear me through the headset? You're following okay? Can you tell us who the family member is sitting next to you? Sorry, we can't hear you. MS TSHIVHASE Before we begin Sophia, I am going to ask if you would take the oath and I'll give you over to Mr Lyster, thank you. SOPHIA NTSUDENI TSHIVHASE (sworn states) MR ALLY Mrs Tshivhase, I am going to try and help you with your statement. You have come here to speak about your husband, Mr Samuel Tshivhase who died in police custody. I am going to ask you now if you will tell us in your own words what happened to your husband, thank you. MS TSHIVHASE In 1983 on the 3rd, my husband was taken at his home. He was arrested - he was arrested in his orchard where I was, where we used to plant vegetables, mealies and maize and sweet potatoes. And he was arrested there and I was there. Those police I definitely do not know them. He was taken on the 3rd during November 1983 and then we were also arrested on the following day on the 4th together with the first wife of the deceased and we were taken here to the Parliament and we were told that our husband was arrested and we were asked if we did not cook VENDA HEARING TRC/NORTH WEST 2 SN TSHIVHASE for the terrorist. And we replied no, we did not see them. My husband was arrested and he never came back. Every Monday we used to be taken by Mambele Tshivhase. It is all. MR ALLY Do you want to continue or do you want to stop? SN TSHIVHASE I'm ending there where we used to be taken every day by Mr Mambele every morning and during the evening he used to take us back together with the first wife of my husband. MR ALLY Thank you Mrs Tshivhase. In your statement you give a fuller account of what happened after your husband was taken and maybe I will assist you by going through your statement before we come back to ask specific questions, is that is okay with you just to go through some of your statement. You say that the reason that your husband was taken away the first time and the questions that they also asked you and your husband's first wife, was that your husband was accused of harbouring or feeding or sheltering so called terrorists, is that true? Is that what your husband was accused of? SN TSHIVHASE Yes, that is true, that is what he was accused of. Yes, it is true that my husband was alleged of harbouring the terrorists and we were - it was alleged that we used to cook for the terrorists in the morning. And they said the men who married Meselina is the one who was seeing that my husband was harbouring the terrorists. MR ALLY ... A problem out there, can we just establish VENDA HEARING TRC/NORTH WEST 3 SN TSHIVHASE what is going on outside there, because there is a lot of noise. The witness is giving a testimony, could we please establish what is going on outside. Thank you very much. There is more room, but I think the people outside, Thembeka if you could just tell the people outside there is more room and as soon as the witness is done with her testimony, they can be invited in, but while someone is giving testimony I don't think it is proper for people to be coming in all the time. So if you could just please reassure people outside that there is room to come in, but let us just finish with the witness who is on the stand. Thank you very much. MR ALLY You say that the police also suspected that he was hiding guns and that they brought him back to your house to come and dig to look for guns, is that true? SN TSHIVHASE Yes, it is true, they came and they went to the orchard, they searched and found nothing. MR ALLY And then after that, after searching and finding nothing, they took him back to the police station. SN TSHIVHASE ; Yes, they took him back to the police station. MR ALLY Now all of these incidents which you've described, were in November and December of 1983. SN TSHIVHASE Yes. MR ALLY Thank you. Then in January 1984, the police came back to you and they told you that your husband had died. Did they say, what did they say to you. How did he die, did they give you any explanation? SN TSHIVHASE They have explained the first wife to my husband and because I went back to my family at Gogogo, and VENDA HEARING TRC/NORTH WEST 4 SN TSHIVHASE they related all this to his first wife and they explained to her that her husband was dead. MR ALLY You say that the person who used to take you to the police station and the person who also came to inform you or the first wife, of the death of your husband, was Mr Mambele Tshivhase? Could you tell us a bit more about this Mr Tshivhase - was he a relative or - because he has the same surname? SN TSHIVHASE Yes, he is the younger brother of my husband. MR ALLY He was a member of the police? SN TSHIVHASE Yes, he was a member of the police. MR ALLY In your statement you say that the brother to your late husband said that your late husband was beaten in the cell for not admitting that he was keeping terrorists and it was this beating that led to your husband's death, is that correct? SN TSHIVHASE Yes, it is correct. He was thoroughly beaten until he died. MR ALLY The brother of your late husband will be prepared to make a statement to the Truth Commission about what he knows about what happened? SN TSHIVHASE I don't know. MR ALLY But maybe somebody can get the details from you afterwards. Mrs Tshivhase, thank you very much for coming. Just before I hand you over to some of the other Commissioners who may want to ask you some questions, I would just like to say that I was just told now that the first wife of Mr Samuel Tshivhase is in the audience today. Unfortunately we did not get any written statement from her, and I would just like to say that because of the way in VENDA HEARING TRC/NORTH WEST 5 SN TSHIVHASE which the Commission works, we only have people to come and testify publicly once we have been given a written statement, so I would just like to say that if the first wife would want to make a statement, we do have statement takers as I said, and I am sure that we would at another opportunity be able to hear her as well. But unfortunately because there is no written statement, we cannot invite her to come and publicly testify. Mrs Tshivhase I am now going to ask if there is any other questions which any of the other Commissioners would like to ask. Richard? MR LYSTER Thank you. Mrs Tshivhase, was your husband a member of any organisation that you know of or that you remember? SN TSHIVHASE No, I don't know. MR LYSTER Was he working at the time that he was detained by the police? SN TSHIVHASE He was gardening in our orchard, we used to produce food there and that contributed to our buying of clothes. MR LYSTER And you say that the police suspected him of keeping what they called terrorists, is that right? SN TSHIVHASE Yes, it is true. MR LYSTER Do you know anything about that? Was he involved in any political organisation or any - was he assisting people, was he doing anything that you know of at the time? SN TSHIVHASE No, I don't know anything. I only learnt from police when they said they wanted to arrest him. MR LYSTER Now you said that they were Black policemen VENDA HEARING TRC/NORTH WEST 6 SN TSHIVHASE and White policemen who came to pick him up. Do you know where they came from? Where they from this area, were they from Louis Trichardt, where were they from? SN TSHIVHASE I don't know. MR LYSTER Were they members of the South African Police or the Venda Police, you don't know that? SN TSHIVHASE No. MR LYSTER And Mrs Tshivhase, do you remember, did you ever attend any case of any sort after your husband's death? Was there - do you remember a case, something of that nature, an inquest perhaps - did you go to court, did you hear anybody testifying, a Doctor perhaps testifying about how your husband died? Was there anything like that that you recall? SN TSHIVHASE No. He didn't go there. MR LYSTER Do you have a death certificate relating to your husband's death? SN TSHIVHASE No, I don't have. I am sorry, it is there yes, available. MY LYSTER I see and does it, is it written on that certificate how your husband died? Perhaps your friend there on your right can help you. SN TSHIVHASE Yes, there is something written in it. MR LYSTER Do you know what it says? Do you know how he died? SN TSHIVHASE Not at all, I don't know. MR LYSTER Perhaps we can have a look at that death certificate after you have given your evidence to see whether we can learn anything from that. MR MANTHATA I have no question Mrs Tshivhase, thank you. MR ALLY Mrs Tshivhase, thank you very much for coming VENDA HEARING TRC/NORTH WEST 7 SN TSHIVHASE forward. There are many things in your statement which we would want to follow up on to hear what the first wife has to say, to hear what the brother has to say of your late husband and to try and get some of those documents. The death certificate, and also to see if there is any inquest records and we will try to follow all of those things up. And if the person is next to you, who accompanied you, if he could also perhaps assist to make a statement to our statement takers, because he seems to have some knowledge also of this case. Once again thank you very much. I am going to ask us if we will please ...