hrvtrans HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATION HEARINGS 1996-10-14 WINELANDS 1 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=56125&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/hrvtrans/wineland/ct00269.htm CASE NO: CT/00269 VICTIM: GQIBILE HANS NATURE OF VIOLENCE: SENTENCED TO DEATH & EXECUTED TESTIMONY BY: PHATHEKILE HANS [ brother] DR ORR Mr Hans can you hear the translation coming threw the earphones? MR HANS No. DR ORR Can you hear me now? MR HANS Ja. DR ORR Thank you, Mr Hans would you please stand to take the oath. PHATHEKILE NORMAN HANS Duly sworn states DR ORR MS GOBODO I also thank you on behalf of this panel. You have come now the tell us about your brother, Gqibile, who was hanged in 1967. We would want you to give us a background to all what happened and explain to us what was the cause of his arrest. Was he perhaps an activist, politically, and give us a full picture of his activities which led to his arrest. Gqibile was a POQO activist. MR HANS Yes MS GOBODO What was his activity in POQO? MR HANS He was one of the members of the POQO but quite active. MS GOBODO What year - what - in what year was he arrested? MR HANS He was arrested in September, on the 28th in September 1961. MS GOBODO What were the causes that made him to go to jail? MR HANS Those times it was difficult, people would be arrested for just being a member of a political party and people would be detained and would be kept in jail for about a year without going to court and until the person would appear in court after a long time. MS GOBODO Now I would like us to emphasize mostly on Gqibile and tell us exactly what was the exact cause for his arrest? MR HANS There were many incidence but he was arrested because he seen as a person who indented to over through the Government. They were just taken from home only because they were member of the political parties. MS GOBODO So we did hear from Mr Maart - Rev Maart that people who were dying at the time. Now in September when Gqibile was arrested, were there any other people who died in the - as community members? MR HANS Yes, there were. MS GOBODO Why were the people killed at the time, just before Gqibile was killed? MR HANS We heard that people who were killed were the informers and those who were alleged to be informers. MS GOBODO So you say those people who were killed were those who are alleged to be informers? MR HANS Yes MS GOBODO I just want to have a clear picture of what was happening. How were these people killed in 1961? MR HANS People were killed anyhow. Some were wrapped in blankets and burnt. MS GOBODO So in the location you say people were being burnt as soon as they were suspected that they were informers? MR HANS Yes, that was what was happening in Mbekweni. MS GOBODO So this POQO organization - how was it active at the time. Where exactly was it very active? MR HANS It was active at the place called Emma [indistinct] MS GOBODO Now I want to again have a clear picture. I want to know where was Gqibile living at the time? MR HANS He was living Langa Bowhja. MS GOBODO Did he have any assosiation with some people in Langa Bowhja and Mbekweni? MR HANS As - community members were working together struggling for freedom and we used to get some work, but we would be told that this work would no suit you because you happened not to be the right person. And this work would be given to a white person. MS GOBODO So when Gqibile was arrested it was during that time? MR HANS Yes MS GOBODO Now, could you explain what happened after he was arrested? MR HANS It went on - they were in jail for quite some time and many things happened. Some people in town was shot and Gqibile was arrested in September and people went in town - they marched to town. MS GOBODO Did the people kill any white man during that time? MR HANS Several events occurred but we did not witness all those - those were just roomers. I was working at Woollens at the time and I could hear the shooting sounds. MS GOBODO Now lets go back to Gqibile once more. You told us that he was arrested because he was a member of the POQO organization. What was the charge that was laid for his arrest? MR HANS In Supreme - in the Supreme Court after three years in jail ...[intervention] MS GOBODO Just tell us why they were given three years sentence? MR HANS In 1961 they were - they were detained for more than a year in jail and sentenced to 3 years imprisonment after which they again appeared in - before the Supreme Court and then sent to Robben Island. MS GOBODO Could I again refer to your statement and say you say your brothers trial lasted for two years. Were you going to court. MR HANS Not all the time. MS GOBODO What were the main issues that were mentioned during the court hearings? MR HANS They wanted to know what was their aim for wanting to overthrow the Government and so they were sentenced for that according to particular laws of the time. MS GOBODO And I just wanted a clear picture because our investigators could not get the files on these trials. So it would help us it we were to hear from you what were the actual issues that were mentioned there in court. MR HANS So he was sentenced and sent to Robben Island for three years and transferred to Victor Verster. MS GOBODO Now could you explain to us why was it that after three years he was later transferred to Victor Verster? MR HANS Whilst they were in Robben Island one of them - a accused - who had been sentenced was made a state witness and was taken out of jail. And he was taken to some other place and they became suspicious. MS GOBODO So instead of them being taken out they were transferred to another jail? MR HANS Yes, they were sentenced once more. MS GOBODO Was there another court case? MR HANS Yes, the other court case - the other allegation was that they wanted to overthrow the Government. That is the reason therefore - why they had to be hanged. And therefore they were either told that they were going to be in jail for life or they were going to be hanged because of their attempt to overthrow the Government. So Gqibile said that was all right referring to the judge that whatever his dogs had said to him he should take and consider and do as they have told him. MS GOBODO Do you still remember the name of the presiding judge? MR HANS No MS GOBODO Which Supreme Court was this - were about? MR HANS MS GOBODO MR HANS Yes, my mother was still alive and she sustained a stroke from that and she did not enjoy good health. MS GOBODO How old was she at the time? MR HANS She was quite old. MS GOBODO And your father? MR HANS No, she died whilst my brother was in jail. MS GOBODO How many were you at the time in your family? MR HANS There were eleven of us. MS GOBODO Were you males or females? MR HANS There was seven males and the others were females. MS GOBODO Could you explain to us and tell us how you survived and went threw this - your brothers hanging? MR HANS My father was suffering from rheumatism and I was this - the sole breadwinner. MS GOBODO Are you the eldest? MR HANS Yes, I am. MS GOBODO How old was Gqibile at the time? MR HANS He was born in 1940 so he was about 27 years old at the time. And young as he was he was hanged. He had children all ready. MS GOBODO How many children did he have? MR HANS He had two children. MS GOBODO Were are those children now? MR HANS They are now in Lesotho, quite old. MS GOBODO Are they independent? MR HANS Yes, they are. MS GOBODO Do you still communicate with his children? MR HANS MS GOBODO Where is their mother? MR HANS Their mother got married. MS GOBODO MR HANS I would like to know that if a person is a member an organization, is it right for the law to sentence that person to death if he has not killed anyone? MS GOBODO But our hope is that if we investigate and find out the senselessness of all these happenings, we all have to make sure that this does not happen again. And it is very important therefore, think, that what can we do to the people and what can the people do as means that our present Government should see to it that history should not repeat itself. We shall be very happy because there are many things that happened which were difficult to us. CHAIRPERSON Denzil Potgieter? ADV POTGIETER MR HANS No ADV POTGIETER Have you got it on number 3, briefer? Can you hear that - can you hear, okay. Looks like our problem is solved. Is that better Mr Hans? MR HANS Ja ADV POTGIETER MR HANS He was with others? ADV POTGIETER MR HANS Yes, I can still remember. There were eight of them. ADV POTGIETER And do you still remember some of the name? MR HANS Ja. ADV POTGIETER MR HANS Yes, one was Khoboka, Hans, Sikhunla, Fatyela, Jaxha, Mgweba, Makula, Goliliswe Ndamene ...[intervention] ADV POTGIETER Were they all from Paarl? MR HANS Yes, they were all from Paarl. ADV POTGIETER [indistinct] accused of, the treason trail, that incident, was it alleged to have happened in Paarl? MR HANS ADV POTGIETER The allegation that the decision was taken in Paarl - the decision to try and overthrow the Government was taken in Paarl. Was that the case that was against them? MR HANS Yes, it was in the Supreme Court because the judge said their aim was to overthrow he Government. And therefore he gave them option that they were to be hanged or the were to stay in jail for life. ADV POTGIETER MR HANS They were just given a few years sentence. ADV POTGIETER Just finally the case on which your brother was sentenced to 3 years, which he went to Robben Island for, where was that case heard - was it heard in Paarl or where was it heard? MR HANS He was arrested here in Paarl, they fetched him from home. ADV POTGIETER And did they say [indistinct] after the three years. MR HANS Three years ADV POTGIETER In Paarl? And was he with the same persons in that case as well? MR HANS Yes, they were all together, there ten of them but two were sentenced to three years and acquitted and they were sent to Pretoria. ADV POTGIETER Thank you Mr Hans. CHAIRPERSON Pumla Gobodo? MS GOBODO Thank you Mr Chairperson, you reminded me of that the names that have been mentioned were mentioned earlier on during our hearings in Worcester by Mr Mkabile who also was once in Robben Island and one of his request was that one - some of those like Fatyela - it should be investigated what happened to them. That was one of his requests, so you also mention his name as one of the people who was with your brother. CHAIRPERSON MR HANS MS GOBODO We thank for all that you have told us, thank you.